Posted on 03/23/2002 3:18:00 PM PST by knighthawk
I am speaking under correction. Please do correct me if I don't have my facts right:
According to The Bible there is no country such as Israel, only Palestine. The Jew and the Arab, both stemming from Abraham is in fact half brothers. So why can they not live in harmony in a new country called Palestine?
Praise be to Allaah.
Your question may be answered by the following points:
There is no doubt that the Prophet of Allaah Ibraaheem (Abraham) was a pure monotheist, and he was not among the polytheists and disbelievers. Although the Jews are among the offspring of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), they went against his way by associating partners in worship with Allaah and claiming that ‘Uzayr (Ezra) was a “son of God.” They said that God is miserly and that His hand is “tied up”, and they said, “He is poor and we are rich.” They also said that when God created the heavens and the earth in six days, He got tired, so He rested on the Sabbath day – exalted be Allaah far above all that they say about Him. They also likened the attributes of God to human attributes (anthropomorphism) and killed the Prophets, etc., etc.
Once this distinction and contrast is made clear, there can be no brotherhood between a monotheistic believer and a polytheistic disbeliever, as Allaah says in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning): “Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibraaheem and those with him, when they said to their people, ‘Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allaah. We have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred forever, - until you believe in Allaah Alone,’ – except the saying of Ibraaheem to his father: ‘Verily, I will ask for forgiveness (from Allaah) for you, but I have no power to do anything for you before Allaah.’ Our Lord! In You (Alone) we put our trust, and to You (Alone) we turn in repentance, and to You (Alone) is (our) final Return, - … Certinaly, there has been in them an excellent example for you to follow, - for those who look forward to (the Meeting with) Allaah – (for the reward from Him) and the Last Day. And whosoever turn away, then verily, Allaah is Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all Praise.” [al-Mumtahinah 60:4,6]
Once this separation and enmity is clear, it is unavoidable that there will be hostility and disavowal and the resulting struggle against the enemies of Allaah. So long as the laws and wisdom of Allaah dictate that there should the distinction between believers and disbelievers, there has to be this clearly-stated enmity. There can be no change to the laws of Allaah.
There cannot be harmony between Jews – who are usurpers and aggressors, who have oppressed and persecuted others, and who are known for their treachery and corruption throughout the world, historically and in the present age – and the purely monotheistic Muslim owners of the land, whose menfolk the Jews have killed, and imprisoned their sons, and destroyed their homes, and taken possession of their lands by force, and prevented them from earning a proper living, and carried out chemical and radiational experiments on their prisoners, and taken organs from them for transplant into Jewish patients… and all other kinds of persecutions and atrocities.
In addition to this, the Jews are people of treachery and betrayal; it is not possible to trust them at all. Their current conduct bears this out: is there any treaty or agreement signed by them that they have actually fulfilled? This is no big surprise for the Muslims, who know what Allaah has said in His Book about the Jews (interpretation of the meaning): “Is it not (the case) that every time they make a covenant, some party among them throws it aside? Nay! The truth is most of them believe not.” [al-Baqarah 2:100].
Moreover, if the Muslims agreed to live in peace with the Jews, who would be in charge? One of the basic principles of Islam is that Islam should prevail, not be prevailed over. One of the conditions for People of the Book (Jews and Christians) living with Muslims in a Muslim country is that they should live under certain conditions (shuroot ahl al-dhimmah) in return for the security and protection afforded them by the Muslims. One of the most important of these conditions is that they should not openly display their shirk and kufr (polytheistic disbelief) in the Muslim lands, whether by word or deed.
As the Muslims and Jews are enemies residing in opposing religious and doctrinal camps, it is not possible for them to be brought together unless one is made to submit to the other by force. Indeed, the Jews now are not allowing the Muslims to remain in their homes, even if there was no provocative action on the part of the Muslims; they are seizing the Muslims’ property by force, building their settlements on the Muslims’ lands and expelling the Muslims by any means. They have expelled millions to the neighbouring countries, which have accommodated them in the so-called Palestinian refugee camps.
Finally, although the Muslims nowadays are in a position of weakness and humiliation – because they have turned away from their religion – and are unable to fight the Jews, take back their stolen lands and impose the rule of Islamic sharee’ah in Palestine, this does not mean that this will always be the case until the end of the world. Things have to change, and one of the indications of this is the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who informed us of some things that are to happen in the future. He was supported by Revelation from his Lord; he did not speak of his own whims and desires, but of that which was revealed to him. He said:
“You will fight the Jews and will prevail over them, so that a rock will say, ‘O Muslim! There is Jew behind me, kill him!’” (Reported by Muslim, 2921; al-Bukhaari, 2926).
According to a report narrated by Muslim from Abu Hurayrah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Hour [the Day of Judgement] will not begin until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say, ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allaah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’ – except for the gharqad (box thorn), for it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (Reported by Muslim, 2922).
None of them thought religion was something to keep secret. Who are you?
I don't know about that. I can get as mad as some of you but 15 minutes on a thread such as this destroys a lot of diplomacy our government has worked very hard to achieve. Not that we have achieved a whole lot.
The religion ought to be trashed, because it is the source of intolerance, suffering, torture, revolution, oppression, dictatorships, kidnappings, and other unpleasantries around the world. Islam needs to go the way of Kali worship, Aztec paganism, and canabalism. The rest of the world's religions get along much better.
Maybe if we try to set a better example they will learn faster. We have to go after the terrorists. That is a given. Anything else is begging for more; HOWEVER, we still need to be kind to those who have done us no harm.
I was trying to think of some good things about Arabs because the lady said they weren't blessed. They have been blessed with black gold. They have good looks and robust health for the most part. I was wondering if any studies have been done about their incidence of breast cancer, tooth decay, sexual diseases, other health problems.
The invented our numbering system. This board would be quite different without that.
They made great strides in medicine while Europe was wallowing in the Dark Ages.
They have beautiful calligraphy.
They have delicious food.
And they invented ebay. That was pretty progressive, don't you think? I'm told it was two Pakistani's who developed it but now I'm told a woman runs it, Arab I believe. If I get a chance I'll try to find out more about that.
I think the hope is that as they come more into the 21st century and achieve a nice lifestyle, they will leave behind some of their warrior ways.
Time will tell. Time is not on our side though.
As for kissing a rock, I don't get too upset about that. We do some strange things sometimes, too. Like bungee jumping.
I prefer my religion to that of others and believe it is morally superior as it was instituted at least, so I don't personally believe in moral equivalency. I just don't like to get "in your face" about it. And the best way to make enemies and influence people negatively is to insult their religion. That will only lead to trouble. Sometimes we get so focussed on the negative, we don't see the good things about other people.
Stefan (?) (can't write and check posts at the same time) made some excellent points about state religion. Separation of church and state was a good idea but it has by no means solved all the problems among the various Christian sects. At best, we just tolerate one another and some of us are friends with some but basically we hang out with those who exactly believe what we believe.
I do firmly believe that if any one particular religion gets total power, be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever, we would be in deep doo doo.
Absolutely. We cannot let savages lure us into acting like savages.
"They have been blessed with black gold.
They have good looks and robust health for the most part."
Not exactly traits they can take credit for, but true nonetheless.
" The invented our numbering system."
I'm not so sure of that. I've read that it comes from India, and the Arabs learned it while raping and pillaging there.
" They made great strides in medicine while Europe was wallowing in the Dark Ages."
I'm none too sure about that, either. Most of the science, medicine, and philosophy they're credited with has its roots in cultures they conquered. There were a lot of them.
"They have beautiful calligraphy."
True. Some of it, like that encircling the Dome of the Rock, is intentionally inflamatory and would be considered blasphemous to Christians. But the text itself is very nice.
" They have delicious food."
Really? I have no experience or knowledge in that area.
" And they invented ebay."
Okay. If you say so, but they had to wait for AlGore to invent the internet, first.
" I think the hope is that as they come more into the 21st century and achieve a nice lifestyle, they will leave behind some of their warrior ways."
The poverty, warfare, and stoneage lifestyle can be attributed to the koran. They'll have to leave it behind. That would be a relief to the rest of us.
" Time will tell. Time is not on our side though."
You got that right.
" As for kissing a rock, I don't get too upset about that. We do some strange things sometimes, too. Like bungee jumping."
True enough - but we don't kill others for bungee jumping, either.
Even if you glide past Watchin's Post 142, Islam is still a valid point of discussion.
Because the IRS categorizes Islam as "religion" doesn't mean that's the only way to view it. Anwar Shaikh makes very good arguments that Islam is the Arab National Movement out to conquer the world, not save souls. The actions of its followers give credence to Shaikh's assertions. The first Moslem contingent to arrive in the United States (1921 or '22) stated their goal was to "turn the U.S. into an Islamic state".
Moslems are not part of a real religion; they're gang members whose founder commanded them to "Fight the disbelievers (non gang members) who dwell near to you ..." (Surah 9:123) Can you imagine a real religion where their God directly commands them to kill the opposition? Or take whatever you can from other gangs but give 20% to Allah, the Messenger... (Surah 8:41, 8:69)? Or beat their wives (Surah 4:34)? Do these commands strike you as RELIGION?
If, in 1870, the founder of the Ku Klux Klan had the foresight to say "God commanded me to kill all the blacks", today, the KKK would be getting tax exempt status as a religion. We'd be watching the Grand Wizards on TV stating that "KKK is peace".
Telling the truth about Islam is an insult? We can look for the best in people, but that will not help matters as long as they detest us and seek our extermination - all because of a religion we're afraid to confront, lest we insult muslims with the fact that we're onto their plot.
The first part is subjective and the second part is not true.
From the 38 countries I could identify quickly as Moslem in Grolier's Encyclopedia:
Male life expectancy averages 60.3 years (Low of 41 in Ethiopia, High of 73 in UAR and Libya, median of 59.7)
Female life expectancy averages 63.9 years (Low of 42 in Ethiopia, High of 77 in Libya, median of 67.6)
Infant mortality rate per 1,000 averages 62.6 (Low of 3.4 in Brunei, High of 150 in Afghanistan, median of 48.9).
The U.S. logs in at 72.9, 79.7 and 6.3, respectively.
As for the food, that is subjective, also. (Not to my taste; but a lot of foods aren't).
Are you serious about ebay? Did 2 Pakistanis invent ebay while living under the social, economic and "religious" constraints of Pakistan or while living here? Besides, 2 Pakistanis don't a culture make.
It's sweet of you to try so desperately to find something nice to say about Moslems; but don't turn your back on them when you're saying it.
If islam stops this madness, I will stop too. Before 9/11 no one believed me when I told about the dangers of militant islam, so I kept silent. Now people have opened their eyes and see what is killing them. As you can see, I am right after all.
Religion is not a private issue as the religion is set for total world dominance and forced submission to it.
If islam is about peace and tolerance, they got a funny way of showing it.
Or maybe you could convince the militant islamaniacs that they should no longer 'stir up things' and make them comprehand that forcing their 'private issue' to other people is wrong.
Matthew 5:
An Eye for an Eye
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Now, some people, or governments, or even cultures may call themselves Christian, but unless they understand and follow Jesus's instructions above, they're not really following Christian teachings. If Muhammad had EVER made a similar statement in the Kuran, I for one would like to know it.
And the EU, the BBC and CNN all want Isralis to trust and make peace with these people?
That's exactly what the Brits and the French did with Hitler: he had been saying for years before the war about German superiority that should result in the domination of the world --- no equal co-existence with the inferior races; they, in turn, were appeasing him. Now the children and grandchildren of that generation want Israel to do the same with the Middle-Eastern Hitlers.
Just as a general point, not addressed at anyone in particular, a lot of people - myself included - are feeling thinskinned more often these days from worry. So this can cause lashing out at someone when it is not warranted. I certainly have been guilty of that myself.
Here is an interesting link about that
No, they did not, the Hindus did. The Arabs learned about the Hindu way because of the trade and spread it to Europe also via trade.
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