How can you say that Woody? Seriously.
Would you say that God is the creator of all? I believe you would.
Would you say that God knew his elect from the foundations of the world? I believe you would.
Would you say that God knew the non-elect from the foundations of the world? I believe you would.
Would you say that only the elect can come to God? I believe you would.
Correct me if I'm wrong on any of those points. If I am I apologize. But tell me where you would disagree. We don't need attitudes (from either of us) and let's not get tangled up in semantics. But aren't those statements factual?
Because if they are, they can mean nothing else but that God created some individuals for the sole purpose of condemning them to eternal torment.
In simple terms, help me see how it could mean anything else.
You and Wesley are choking on what is not Calvinism.
Would you say that God is the creator of all? Yes
Would you say that God knew his elect from the foundations of the world? Yes
Would you say that God knew the non-elect from the foundations of the world? Yes
Would you say that only the elect can come to God? No
You make an interesting point: God knew his elect from the foundations of the world! God just didn't know about them, He knew them altogether.
Before, I continue to clarify our position, please answer your own 4 questions.
Please help me understand this. If our Sovereign God created some without the hope of salvation's grace, would they then not be considered obedient to His purpose and not be considered "lost in sin"? Do I not understand correctly that all disobedience to God is "sin" - and if by reason this is true, would the "disobedient" which were predestined to that end, not actually be "obedient" to God's purpose? Whew! I'm dizzy from going in circles.
What happened to mankind's choosing the paths of destruction as many of the OT prophets so sincerely warned of doing? Why would God directly tell Cain that if he chose to do well, Cain would be accepted but if not, sin lieth at his door? And lastly, why would Joshua ask Israel to choose this day whom they would serve?
I know, all that's Old Testament scripture, but the New Testament is the record of the OT fulfilled by Christ's work, isn't it? In the NT, we are told that it is the Lord's will that all come to repentance (2 Pet. Ch. 3 V. 9). I take the words "not willing" to mean the Lord's will. Does this indicate His will is a failure? Certainly not. Why? Because the freedom to choose seems to play a huge part in the consequences.
In this sense, Calvinism really confuses me. So I think it's best I stick to the simple - to love my God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength. And at my best, to love others as myself. I believe it is this "soul" purpose to which we were predestined as brothers in Christ...
Az