On Free Grace

Wesley Center of Applied Theology | 1740 | John Wesley

[Ward Smythe]

It affects absolutely nothing about the Predestination we are discussing.

Of course it does.

That's precisely the concept that's hard to grasp Woody. You can't see what we're saying, even if you believe it's wrong. Follow the link, read the sermon.

It's not really fair of you to fault me for not knowing what Calvinism is saying when you don't know what Wesleyanism is saying. Granted, it's a very subtle difference. I acknowledged that much earlier. But there is a distinction.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Total Depravity means man is totally sinful and is not ABLE in his own power to know Christ. Do you accept that as a fair, brief characterization of "total depravity?"

No.

Try instead,

Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ.

I think that definition will avoid any misconceptions.

The natural tongue of Man is able to praise Christ, as far as its "power"; but the Natural Man in his spirit does not ever want to praise Christ.

[Ward Smythe]

But it is a non issue here!

I agree. And I don't want to go off on a tangent. I have absolutely no desire to get into that debate. I was just curious.

For the record though, Reformed Presbyterians pretty much don't allow women to do anything without a "covering." Meaning no women elders, deacons, worship leaders, etc. Women can teach children, but cannot teach a class with men unless there is a "covering" (i.e. her husband, a pastor, an elder) present.

[Jean Chauvin]

"Jesus wasn't afraid of the crowd or of what folks thought. He had lots of women following him. If he'd wanted to make one an apostle, he would've done so in a heartbeat. He was fiercely courageous and was not moved by the opinions of men."

Actually, X, the denomination I grew up in (and since left) recently OK'd women to all church offices. Some in the denomination argued that Paul was a wuss and didn't want to ruffle feathers, which is why he proclaimed for women to keep silent -even though he really knew better.

Jean

[Jerry_M]

"So, then, it's more correct to say to the crowd, "Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, even yours." After the above, how can you not see that?"

No, it is not correct at all. If Stalin (or anyone) did not receive salvation then they would not have their sins forgiven. How can you not see that? Take a look at the John Owen post (175?), don't you see your problem?

[xzins]

Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ.

Does everyone of you calvinists accept this. I'm satisfied with its brevity. I want clarity in this discussion in the future, so I'm soliciting YOUR opinions on definitions.

[CCWoody]

If you must have a 1 sentence definition for the T: The natural man is not willing to come to Christ that he may have life.

[Jean Chauvin]

"You can post all day long that I've given you the debate, but I haven't."

You can post all day long that you haven't given us the debate, but that doesn't change the fact that in reality you have! ;)

Jean

[Jerry_M]

Re. 262. You beat me to it. I was going to tell our FRiend that it was a matter of the will, but I don't need to now.

[CCWoody]

I accept OP's; I'm sure OP accepts "mine" as well.

[CCWoody]

That's precisely the concept that's hard to grasp Woody. You can't see what we're saying, even if you believe it's wrong. Follow the link, read the sermon.

I'll read the sermon, but you should know that I am not even arguing my personal view of Predestination at this point. I'm simply attempting to get you to stand on a Rock with me that simply says: I am willing to let God be God!

[Jerry_M]

Let me just say that even though we are hitting on a multitude of topics here (ordination of women, all the points of TULIP, etc.), I am happy to confine myself to one thread.

Much easier to keep up with.

[xzins]

Some in the denomination argued that Paul was a wuss and didn't want to ruffle feathers,

Paul wasn't ever cowed by anyone in the entire book of Acts or in any of his letters. He stood firmly for what he believed and put his neck on the block by appealing to Caesar.

What denomination was it that you just left? If Paul had wanted to ordain women as elders he would not have been afraid to at all. He had some fine prospects in Priscilla and Lydia, too. But we're not told that he did.

Some day, I imagine, they'll kick me out of mine. Then I'll probably go to someplace that'll accept a "free will, 2nd work, post-millenial, male elder, connected churches, bible inerrancy, evangelical." Anyone know a denomination like that?

[RnMomof7]

For the record though, Reformed Presbyterians pretty much don't allow women to do anything without a "covering." Meaning no women elders, deacons, worship leaders, etc. Women can teach children, but cannot teach a class with men unless there is a "covering" (i.e. her husband, a pastor, an elder) present.

I would agree with that. Thus my flags to the guys:>)

[Ward Smythe]

You can post all day long that you haven't given us the debate, but that doesn't change the fact that in reality you have!

Well, no, no, I haven't. And neither one of us has time to go back and forth on that, so let's just say you think I've given you the debate and I think I haven't.

Can we at least agree on that?

[Ward Smythe]

I'm simply attempting to get you to stand on a Rock with me that simply says: I am willing to let God be God!

I'm willing to stand there brother. Are you willing to allow me to stand there and at least admit that I see the horizon a little differently?

Because surely you won't try to pull the "Because you say 'I am willing to let God be God' you've given me the debate," now would you? ;-)

Ol' Ward wasn't born yesterday (for the first or second time).

[RnMomof7]

Total Depravity means that Natural Man is totally sinful and does not ever WANT in his own spirit to know Christ.

Does everyone of you calvinists accept this. I'm satisfied with its brevity. I want clarity in this discussion in the future, so I'm soliciting YOUR opinions on definitions

I can accept that and I have flagged those that have participated this week to the discussion.

[CCWoody]

connected churches

do you mean FCCM?

[xzins]

Don't worry about it Ward; Chauvin gave me the debate a few days ago.

[RnMomof7]

Some day, I imagine, they'll kick me out of mine. Then I'll probably go to someplace that'll accept a "free will, 2nd work, post-millenial, male elder, connected churches, bible inerrancy, evangelical." Anyone know a denomination like that?

Could ya drop the Free will and add Sovereign Grace?? :>)