On Free Grace

Wesley Center of Applied Theology | 1740 | John Wesley

[Jerry_M]

"Jerry, if Stalin had in the last 2 minutes of his life turned to Jesus and said to him, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom," would we find Stalin in heaven?"

Do you really think that Stalin did this? Or, is this your way of saying, "I really want to be a universalist, and sure hope that God speaks to everyman just before he expires"?

Joseph Stalin would have only said "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom" if the Holy Spirit had regenerated him and given him a heart of flesh.

If you don't like Joseph Stalin, then how about this:

If an Arminian preached to a 9-11 hijacker just prior to hitting the WTC (for which he would have probably been slashed with a boxcutter), and said "Hijacker, Jesus died for your sins", and a Calvinist preached to that same hijacker (for which he too would have probably been slashed) and said "Hijacker, Jesus died for sinners", which one would have told the truth, in the end analysis? (I would assume that chanting "Allahu Ackbar" at the time of the collision would preclude his saying "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom".

[Ward Smythe]

What a non-issue.

Sorry, Jerry, I was pokin' fun. I myself just wasted five minutes at Bible Gateway searching for "witnessesses."

[xzins]

Honest I did not call them to beat up on ya friend :>)

Don't believe it ward. :-)

They claim not to tagteam, but I'm fairly sure they hand the baton on different laps.

[CCWoody]

You guys are even arrogant with your capitalization.

Perhaps you would like this: Arminian
Perhaps you would like this: God
Perhaps you would like this: Calvinist

It is not a problem for me.

[CCWoody]

No, Woody. I have not.

Really, at what point in my post do you and I separate?

[RnMomof7]

How about this. One of the subordinate preachers (a supply pastor) went to one of our seminaries for a course of studies we require of anyone who wants to fill one of our pulpits. The Lady Teacher, when asked about the lost, told the class not to worry about that. She said, "Jesus descended to the dead and preached to them once." She followed up with, "He's already established a pattern. Don't worry about it. They'll all get another chance."

Wow that is scary X..Is it ok to say that I think women are more prone to errors like that? That is one of the reasons I flag the guy or guys that are on at the time usually.

I have one for you

I know this very sweet Lady Pastor (Wesleyan type (I do not want to name the church:>) Once in a discussion she told me that in a class she was taking before she was ordained they were discussing sin..they spoke of lying as being a sin God specifially singled out but that is very "common" in the church.

She told me she raised her hand and told them not all lies are sin..that if she lies to save someones feelings ..it is not a sin. For the first rule is to love

I kept silent..but was taken back..this lady pastors a church.God is not mocked..

Situation ethics are not part of the gospel..

[xzins]

Jerry, you didn't answer my question. IF, IF, IF, IF
Stalin had done so would be be saved?

Also, I'm gonna set about paraphrasing (condensing) that tulip post you gave us....was that this thread.....in any case, I'd like you to participate in a condensation so we can get it right. Is that OK with you?

[RnMomof7]

Don't believe it ward. :-)

I did not lie my friend ..It was you I hoped they would respond to not Ward, and I didn't want them to "beat " you up..just answer your posts..

[Ward Smythe]

They claim not to tagteam, but I'm fairly sure they hand the baton on different laps.

I just figure Uncle Screwtape is multi-tasking. ;-)

It's a JOKE people!

[Jerry_M]

Go back and re-read, I did answer your question about Stalin.

Why would you need to condense? The presentation of the Five Points was already pretty succinct.

[xzins]

I kept silent..but was taken back..this lady pastors a church.God is not mocked..

Mom, I am a very, very bad methodist. I can see an argument for a separate order in the church called "deaconesses," but I simply can see NO scriptural basis for a female elder. I keep getting slammed for this.

Jesus wasn't afraid of the crowd or of what folks thought. He had lots of women following him. If he'd wanted to make one an apostle, he would've done so in a heartbeat. He was fiercely courageous and was not moved by the opinions of men.

That he did not appoint a woman to an apostleship says a lot to me.

I just put on my asbestos suit, so flame away....anyone who wants to.

[xzins]

Why would you need to condense? The presentation of the Five Points was already pretty succinct.

You have no idea how limited my mental capacity is. :-)

I need something that comes to memory and is real solid....you know, like POINTS in a sermon.

[Ward Smythe]

Really, at what point in my post do you and I separate?

It's back in Post #178 Woody.

Like I said, it's a difficult concept. I'm simply not going to get into "yes it is" - "no it isn't" - "yes it is" - "no it isn't."

You can post all day long that I've given you the debate, but I haven't.

[Ward Smythe]

I simply can see NO scriptural basis for a female elder.

In all seriousness, would Calvinists flame you for this? Or are their differences of opinion?

It's not an issue I want to debate. I'm just curious.

[xzins]

if the Holy Spirit had regenerated him and given him a heart of flesh

Is that the answer you speak of? That looks like a "yes."

So, then, it's more correct to say to the crowd, "Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, even yours." After the above, how can you not see that?

[CCWoody]

God knows that man sins; for he knows all things: Yet we do not sin because he knows it, but he knows it because we sin; and his knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause it. John Wesley on Predestination.

I will grant you this statement. It affects absolutely nothing about the Predestination we are discussing. You have already granted that God, knowing the final chioce of a man, could have created him differently so that he would have chosen to Repent. It is God's foreknowledge of his choice to create him this way or that way, which Predestined that man. You have already given me this.

[xzins]

Total Depravity (Total Inability) Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being. The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).

T - condensation:

Total Depravity means man is totally sinful and is not ABLE in his own power to know Christ.

Do you accept that as a fair, brief characterization of "total depravity?"

[xzins]

So far as I know, Presbyterians and Methodists both would flame me for saying there is no scriptural basis for female elders; however, they would be theologically moderate to liberal.

I don't know if moderate presbyterians are still calvinist or not. Are they????? I'm fairly sure the liberals aren't, because liberals are the same everywhere. They don't believe anything.

[RnMomof7]

You may not be a "good Methodist" but you are a man with good discernment in this area..

I enjoyed my friendship with this lady..It was nice to have a Christian sister..but I would NEVER place myself under a woman's spiritual authority .

Do not expect many flames from this crew..( unless Wade disagrees)

[RnMomof7]

In all seriousness, would Calvinists flame you for this? Or are their differences of opinion?

NO

I believe that the Presbyterians may have woman as deacons.....(I think the liberal branch may ordain)

But it is a non issue here!