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On Free Grace
Wesley Center of Applied Theology | 1740 | John Wesley

Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration

JOHN WESLEY SERMON ONE HUNDRED TWENTY-EIGHT FREE GRACE PREACEHD AT BRISTOL, IN THE YEAR 1740 "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" Rom. 8:32

___________________ TO THE READER Nothing but the strongest conviction, not only that what is here advanced is "the truth as it is in Jesus," but also that I am indispensably obliged to declare this truth to all the world, could have induced me openly to oppose the sentiments of those whom I esteem for their work's sake: At whose feet may I be found in the day of the Lord Jesus! Should any believe it his duty to reply hereto, I have only one request to make, -- Let whatsoever you do, be done inherently, in love, and in the spirit of meekness. Let your very disputing show that you have "put on, as the elect of God, bowel of mercies, gentleness, longsuffering; "that even according to this time it may be said, "See how these Christians love one another!"

ADVERTISEMENT Whereas a pamphlet entitled, "Free Grace Indeed," has been published against this Sermon; this is to inform the publisher, that I cannot answer his tract till he appears to be more in earnest. For I dare not speak of "the deep things of God" in the spirit of a prize-fighter or a stage-player.

___________________ 1. How freely does God love the world! While we were yet sinners, "Christ died for the ungodly." While we were "dead in our sin," God "spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all." And how freely with him does he "give us all things!" Verily, FREE GRACE is all in all!

2. The grace or love of God, whence cometh our salvation, is FREE IN ALL, and FREE FOR ALL. 3. First. It is free in all to whom it is given. It does not depend on any power or merit in man; no, not in any degree, neither in whole, nor in part. It does not in anywise depend either on the good works or righteousness of the receiver; not on anything he has done, or anything he is. It does not depend on his endeavors. It does not depend on his good tempers, or good desires, or good purposes and intentions; for all these flow from the free grace of God; they are the streams only, not the fountain. They are the fruits of free grace, and not the root. They are not the cause, but the effects of it. Whatsoever good is in man, or is done by man, God is the author and doer of it. Thus is his grace free in all; that is, no way depending on any power or merit in man, but on God alone, who freely gave us his own Son, and "with him freely giveth us all things.

4. But it is free for ALL, as well as IN ALL. To this some have answered, "No: It is free only for those whom God hath ordained to life; and they are but a little flock. The greater part of God hath ordained to death; and it is not free for them. Them God hateth; and, therefore, before they were born, decreed they should die eternally. And this he absolutely decreed; because so was his good pleasure; because it was his sovereign will. Accordingly, they are born for this, -- to be destroyed body and soul in hell. And they grow up under the irrevocable curse of God, without any possibility of redemption; for what grace God gives. he gives only for this, to increase, not prevent, their damnation."

5. This that decree of predestination. But methinks I hear one say, "This is not the predestination which I hold: I hold only the election of grace. What I believe is not more than this, -- that God,, before the foundation of the world, did elect a certain number of men to be justified, sanctified, and glorified. Now, all these will be saved, and none else; for the rest of mankind God leaves to themselves: So they follow the imaginations of their own hearts, which are only evil continually, and, waxing worse and worse, are at length justly punished with everlasting destruction."

6. Is this all the predestination which you hold? Consider; perhaps this is not all. Do not you believe God ordained them to this very thing" If so, you believe the whole degree; you hold predestination in the full sense which has been above described. But it may be you think you do not. Do not you then believe, God hardens the hearts of them that perish: Do not you believe, he (literally) hardened Pharaoh's heart; and that for this end he raised him up, or created him? Why, this amounts to just the same thing. If you believe Pharaoh, or any one man upon earth, was created for this end, -- to be damned, -- you hold all that has been said of predestination. And there is no need you should add, that God seconds his degree, which is supposed unchangeable and irresistible, by hardening the hearts of those vessels of wrath whom that decree had before fitted for destruction.

7. well, but it may be you do not believe even this; you do not hold any decree of reprobation; you do not think God decrees any man to be damned, not hardens, irresistibly fits him, for damnation; you only say, "God eternally decreed, that all being dead in sin, he would say to some of the dry bones, Live, and to others he would not; that, consequently, these should be made alive, and those abide in death, -- these should glorify God by their salvation, and those by their destruction."

8. Is not this what you mean by the election of grace? If it be, I would ask one or two question: Are any who are not thus elected saved? or were any, from the foundation of the world? Is it possible any man should be saved unless he be thus elected? If you say, "No," you are but where you was; you are not got one hair's breadth farther; you still believe, that, in consequence of an unchangeable, irresistible decree of God, the greater part of mankind abide in death, without any possibility of redemption; inasmuch as none can save them but God, and he will not save them. You believe he hath absolutely decreed not to save them; and what is this but decreeing to damn them? It is, in effect, neither more not less; it comes to the same thing; for if you are dead, and altogether unable to make yourself alive, then, if God has absolutely decreed he will make only others alive, and not you, he hath absolutely decreed your everlasting death; you are absolutely consigned to damnation. So then, though you use softer words than some, you mean the self-same thing; and God's decree concerning the election of grace, according to your account of it, amounts to neither more not less than what others call God's decree of reprobation.

9. Call it therefore by whatever name you please, election, preterition, predestination, or reprobation, it comes in the end to the same thing. The sense of all is plainly this, -- by virtue of an eternal, unchangeable, irresistible decree of God, on part of mankind are infallibly saved, and the rest infallibly damned; it being impossible that any of the former should be damned. or that any of the latter should be saved.

10. But if this be so, then is all preaching vain. It is needless to them that are elected; for they, whether with preaching or without, will infallibly be saved. Therefore, the end of preaching -- to save should -- is void with regard to them; and it is useless to them that are not elected, for they cannot possibly be saved: They, whether with preaching or without, will infallibly be damned. The end of preaching is therefore void with regard to them likewise; so that in either case our preaching is vain, as you hearing is also vain.

11. This then, is a plain proof that the doctrine of predestination is not a doctrine of God, because it makes void the ordinance of God; and God is not divided against himself. A Second is, that it directly tends to destroy that holiness which is the end of all the ordinances of God. I do not say, none who hold it are holy; (for God is of tender mercy to those who are unavoidably entangled in errors of any kind;) but that the doctrine itself, -- that every man is either elected or not elected from eternity, and that the one must inevitably be saved, and the other inevitably damned, -- has a manifest tendency to destroy holiness in general; for it wholly takes away those first motives to follow after it, so frequently proposed in Scripture, the hope of future reward and fear of punishment, the hope of heaven and fear of hell. That these shall go away into everlasting punishment, and those into life eternal, is not motive to him to struggle for life who believes his lot is cast already; it is not reasonable for him so to do, if he thinks he is unalterably adjudged either to life or death. You will say, "But he knows not whether it is life or death." What then? -- this helps not the matter; for if a sick man knows that he must unavoidably die, or unavoidably recover, though he knows not which, it is unreasonable for him to take any physic at all. He might justly say, (and so I have heard some speak, both in bodily sickness and in spiritual,) "If I am ordained to life, I shall live; if to death, I shall live; so I need not trouble myself about it." So directly does this doctrine tend to shut the very gate of holiness in general, -- to hinder unholy men from ever approaching thereto, or striving to enter in thereat.

12. as directly does this doctrine tend to destroy several particular branches of holiness. Such are meekness and love, -- love, I mean, of our enemies, -- of the evil and unthankful. I say not, that none who hold it have meekness and love; (for as is the power of God, so is his mercy;) but that it naturally tends to inspire, or increase, a sharpness or eagerness of temper, which is quite contrary to the meekness of Christ; as then especially appears, when they are opposed on this head. And it as naturally inspires contempt or coldness towards those whom we suppose outcast form God. "O but," you say. "I suppose no particular man a reprobate." You mean you would not if you could help it: But you cannot help sometimes applying your general doctrine to particular persons: The enemy of souls will apply it for you. You know how often he has done so. But you rejected the thought with abhorrence. True; as soon as you could; but how did it sour and sharpen your spirit in the mean time! you well know it was not the spirit of love which you then felt towards that poor sinner, whom you supposed or suspected, whether you would or no, to have been hated of God from eternity.

13. Thirdly. This doctrine tends to destroy the comfort of religion, the happiness of Christianity. This is evident as to all those who believe themselves to be reprobated, or who only suspect or fear it. All the great and precious promises are lost to them; they afford them no ray of comfort: For they are not the elect of God; therefore they have neither lot nor portion in them. This is an effectual bar to their finding any comfort or happiness, even in that religion whose ways are designed to be "ways of pleasantness, and all her paths peace."

14. And as to you who believe yourselves the elect of God, what is your happiness? I hoe, not a notion, a speculative belief, a bare opinion of any kind; but a feeling possession of God in your heart, wrought in you by the Holy Ghost, or, the witness of God's Spirit with your spirit that you are a child of God. This, otherwise termed "the full assurance of faith,: is the true ground of a Christian's happiness. And it does indeed imply a full assurance that all your past sins are forgiven, and that you are now a child of God. But it does not necessarily imply a full assurance of our future perseverance. I do not say this is never joined to it, but that it is not necessarily implied therein; for many have the one who have not the other.

15. Now, this witness of the Spirit experience shows to be much obstructed by this doctrine; and not only in those who, Believing themselves reprobated, by this belief thrust it far from them, but even in them that have tasted of that good gift, who yet have soon lost it again, and fallen back into doubts, and fears, and darkness, -- horrible darkness, that might be felt! And I appeal to any of you who hold this doctrine, to say, between God and your own hearts, whether you have not often a return of doubts and fears concerning your election or perseverance! If you ask, "Who has not?" I answer, Very few of those that hold this doctrine; but many, very many, of those that hold it not, in all parts of the earth; -- many of these have enjoyed the uninterrupted witness of his Spirit, the continual light of his countenance, from the moment wherein they first believed, for many months or years, to this day.

16. That assurance of faith which these enjoy excludes all doubt and fear, It excludes all kinds of doubt and fear concerning their future perseverance; though it is not properly, as was said before, an assurance of what is future, but only of what now is. And this needs not for its support a speculative belief, that whoever is once ordained to life must live; for it is wrought from hour to hour, by the mighty power of God, "by the Holy Ghost which is given unto them." And therefore that doctrine is not of God, because it tends to obstruct, if not destroy, this great work of the Holy Ghost, whence flows the chief comfort of religion, the happiness of Christianity.

17. Again: How uncomfortable a thought is this, that thousands and millions of men, without any preceding offense or fault of theirs, were unchangeably doomed to everlasting burnings! How peculiarly uncomfortable must it be to those who have put on Christ! to those who, being filled with bowels of mercy, tenderness, and compassion, could even "wish themselves accursed for their brethren's sake!"

18. Fourthly. This uncomfortable doctrine directly tends to destroy our zeal for good works. And this it does, First, as it naturally tends (according to what was observed before) to destroy our love to the greater part of mankind, namely, the evil and unthankful. For whatever lessens our love, must go far lessen our desire to do them good. This it does, Secondly, as it cuts off one of the strongest motives to all acts of bodily mercy, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and the like, -- viz., the hope of saving their souls from death. For what avails it to relieve their temporal wants, who are just dropping into eternal fire? "Well; but run and snatch them as brands out of the fire.: Nay, this you suppose impossible. They were appointed thereunto, you say, from eternity, before they had done either good or evil. you believe it is the will of God they should die. And "who hath resisted his will?" But you say you do not know whether these are elected or not. What then? If you know they are the one or the other, -- that they are either elected or not elected, -- all your labour is void and vain. In either case, your advice, reproof, or exhortation is as needless and useless as our preaching. It is needless to them that are elected; for they will infallibly be saved without it. It is useless to them that are not elected; for with or without it they will infallibly be damned; therefore you cannot consistently with your principles take any pains about their salvation. Consequently, those principles directly tend to destroy you zeal for good works; for all good works; but particularly for the greatest of all, the saving of souls from death.

19. But, Fifthly, this doctrine not only tends to destroy Christian holiness, happiness, and good works, but hath also a direct and manifest tendency to overthrow the whole Christian Revelation. The point which the wisest of the modern unbelievers most industriously labour to prove, is, that the Christian Revelation is not necessary. They well know, could they once show this, the conclusion would be too plain to be denied, "If it be not necessary, it is not true," Now, this fundamental point you give up. For supposing that eternal, unchangeable decree, one part of mankind must be saved, though the Christian Revelation were not in being, and the other part of mankind must be damned, notwithstanding that Revelation. And what would an infidel desire more? You allow him all he asks. In making the gospel thus unnecessary to all sorts of men, you give up the whole Christian cause. "O tell it not in Gath! lest the daughters of the uncircumcised rejoice; "lest the sons of unbelief triumph!

20. And as this doctrine manifestly and directly tends to overthrow the whole Christian Revelation, so it does the same thing, by plain consequence, in making that Revelation contradict itself. For it is grounded on such an interpretation of some texts (more or fewer it matters not) as flatly contradicts all the other texts, and indeed the whole scope and tenor of Scripture. For instance: The assertors of this doctrine interpret that text of Scripture, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated," as implying that God in a literal sense hated Esau, and all the reprobated, from eternity. Now, what can possibly be a more flat contradiction than this, not only to the whole scope and tenor of Scripture, but also to all those particular texts which expressly declare, "God is love?" Again: They infer from that text, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy," (Romans 4:15) that God is love only to some men, viz.,the elect, and that he hath mercy for those only; flatly contrary to which is the whole tenor of Scripture, as is that express declaration in particular, "The Lord is loving unto every man; and his mercy is over all his works." (Psalm 114:9.) Again: They infer from that and the like texts, "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy,: that he showeth mercy only to those to whom he had respect from all eternity. Nay, but who replieth against God now? You now contradict the whole oracles of God, which declare throughout, "God is no respecter of persons:' (Acts 10:34) "There is no respect of persons with him." (Rom. 2:11.) Again: from that text, "The children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; it was said unto her," unto Rebecca, "The elder shall serve the younger;"you infer, that our being predestinated, or elect, no way depends on the foreknowledge of God. Flatly contrary to this are all the scriptures; and those in particular, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God; " (1 Peter 1:2;) "Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." (Rom. 8:29.)

21. And "the same Lord over all is rich" in mercy "to all that call upon him:" (Romans 10:12:) But you say, "No; he is such only to those for whom Christ died. And those are not all, but only a few, whom God hath chosen out of the world; for he died not for all, but only for those who were 'chosen in him before the foundation of the world.'" (Eph. 1:4.) Flatly contrary to your interpretation of these scriptures, also, is the whole tenor of the New Testament; as are in particular those texts: -- "Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died," (Rom. 14:15,) -- a clear proof that Christ died, not only for those that are saved, but also for them that perish: He is "the Saviour of the world;" (John 4:42;) He is "the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world;" (John 1:29;) "He is the propitiation, not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world;" (1 John 2:2;) "He," the living God, "is the Savior of all men;" (1 Timothy 4:10;) "He gave himself a ransom for all;" (1 Tim. 2:6;) "He tasted death for every man." (Heb. 2:9.)

22. If you ask, "Why then are not all men saved?" the whole law and the testimony answer, First, Not because of any decree of God; not because it is his pleasure they should die; for, As I live, saith the Lord God," I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth." (Ezek. 18:3, 32.) Whatever be the cause of their perishing, it cannot be his will, if the oracles of God are true; for they declare, "He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance;" (2 Pet. 3:9;) "He willeth that all men should be saved." And they, Secondly, declare what is the cause why all men are not saved, namely, that they will not be saved: So our Lord expressly, "Ye will not come unto me that ye may have life." (John 5:40.) "The power of the Lord is present to heal" them, but they will not be healed. "They reject the counsel," the merciful counsel, "of God against themselves," as did their stiff-necked forefathers. And therefore are they without excuse; because God would save them, but they will not be saved: This is the condemnation, "How often would I have gathered you together, and ye would not!" (Matt. 23:37.)

23. Thus manifestly does this doctrine tend to overthrow the whole Christian Revelation, by making it contradict itself; by giving such an interpretation of some texts, as flatly contradicts all the other texts, and indeed the whole scope and tenor of Scripture; -- an abundant proof that it is not of God. But neither is this all: For, Seventhly, it is a doctrine full of blasphemy; of such blasphemy as I should dread to mention, but that the honour of our gracious God, and the cause of his truth, will not suffer me to be silent. In the cause of God, then, and from a sincere concern for the glory of his great name, I will mention a few of the horrible blasphemies contained in this horrible doctrine. But first, I must warn every one of you that hears, as ye will answer it at the great day, not to charge me (as some have done) with blaspheming, because I mention the blasphemy of others. And the more you are grieve with them that do thus blaspheme, see that ye "confirm your love towards them: the more, and that your heart's desire, and continual prayer to God, be, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do!"

24. This premised, let it be observed, that this doctrine represents our blessed Lord, "Jesus Christ the righteous," "the only begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth," as an hypocrite, a deceiver of the people, a man void of common sincerity. For it cannot be denied, that he everywhere speaks as if he was willing that all men should be saved. Therefore, to say he was not willing that all men should be saved, is to represent him as a mere hypocrite and dissembler. It cannot be denied that the gracious words which came out of his mouth are full of invitations to all sinners. To say, then, he did not intend to save all sinners, is to represent him as a gross deceiver of the people. You cannot deny that he says, "Come unto me, all ye that are weary and heavy laden." If, then, you say he calls those that cannot come; those whom he knows to be unable to come; those whom he can make able to come, but will not; how is it possible to describe greater insincerity? You represent him as mocking his helpless creatures, by offering what he never intends to give. You describe him as saying on thing, and meaning another; as pretending the love which his had not. Him, in "whose mouth was no guile," you make full of deceit, void of common sincerity; -- then especially, when, drawing nigh the city, He wept over it, and said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, -- and ye would not;" hqelhsa -- kai ouk hqelhsate. Now, if you say, they would, but he would not, you represent him (which who could hear?) as weeping crocodiles' tears; weeping over the prey which himself had doomed to destruction!

25. Such blasphemy this, as one would think might make the ears of a Christian to tingle! But there is yet more behind; for just as it honours the Son, so doth this doctrine honour the Father. It destroys all his attributes at once: It overturns both his justice, mercy, and truth; yea, it represents the most holy God as worse than the devil, as both more false, more cruel, and more unjust. More false; because the devil, liar as he is, hath never said, "He willeth all men to be saved:" More unjust; because the devil cannot, if he would, be guilty of such injustice as you ascribe to God, when you say that God condemned millions of souls to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, for continuing in sin, which, for want of that grace he will not give them, they cannot avoid: And more cruel; because that unhappy spirit "seeketh rest and findeth none;" so that his own restless misery is a kind of temptation to him to tempt others. But God resteth in his high and holy place; so that to suppose him, of his own mere motion, of his pure will and pleasure, happy as he is, to doom his creatures, whether they will or no, to endless misery, is to impute such cruelty to him as we cannot impute even to the great enemy of God and man. It is to represent the high God (he that hath ears to hear let him hear!) as more cruel, false, and unjust than the devil!

26. This is the blasphemy clearly contained in the horrible decree+ of predestination! And here I fix my foot. On this I join issue with every assertor of it. You represent God as worse than the devil; more false, more cruel, more unjust. But you say you will prove it by scripture. Hold! What will you prove by Scripture? that God is worse than the devil? I cannot be. Whatever that Scripture proves, it never an prove this; whatever its true meaning be. This cannot be its true meaning. Do you ask, "What is its true meaning then?" If I say, " I know not," you have gained nothing; for there are many scriptures the true sense whereof neither you nor I shall know till death is swallowed up in victory. But this I know, better it were to say it had no sense, than to say it had such a sense as this. It cannot mean, whatever it mean besides, that the God of truth is a liar. Let it mean what it will it cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust. No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works; that is, whatever it prove beside, no scripture can prove predestination.

27. This is the blasphemy for which (however I love the persons who assert it) I abhor the doctrine of predestination, a doctrine, upon the supposition of which, if one could possibly suppose it for a moment, (call it election, reprobation, or what you please, for all comes to the same thing,) one might say to our adversary, the devil, "Thou fool, why dost thou roar about any longer? Thy lying in wait for souls is as needless and useless as our preaching. Hearest thou not, that God hath taken thy work out of thy hands; and that he doeth it much more effectually? Thou, with all thy principalities and powers, canst only so assault that we may resist thee; but He can irresistibly destroy both body and soul in hell! Thou canst only entice; but his unchangeable decrees, to leave thousands of souls in death, compels them to continue in sin, till they drop into everlasting burnings. Thou temptest; He forceth us to be damned; for we cannot resist his will. Thou fool, why goest thou about any longer, seeking whom thou mayest devour? Hearest thou not that God is the devouring lion, the destroyer of souls, the murderer of men" Moloch caused only children to pass though the fire: and that fire was soon quenched; or, the corruptible body being consumed, its torment was at an end; but God, thou are told, by his eternal decree, fixed before they had done good or evil, causes, not only children of a span long, but the parents also, to pass through the fire of hell, the 'fire which never shall be quenched; and the body which is cast thereinto, being now incorruptible and immortal, will be ever consuming and never consumed, but 'the smoke of their torment,' because it is God's good pleasure, 'ascendeth up for ever and ever.'"

28. O how would the enemy of God and man rejoice to hear these things were so! How would he cry aloud and spare not! How would he lift up his voice and say, "To your tents, O Israel! Flee from the face of this God, or ye shall utterly perish! But whither will ye flee? Into heaven? He is there, Down to hell? He is there also. Ye cannot flee from an omnipresent, almighty tyrant. And whether ye flee or stay, I call heaven, his throne, and earth, his footstool, to witness against you, ye shall perish, ye shall die eternally. Sing, O hell, and rejoice, ye that are under the earth! For God, even the mighty God, hath spoken, and devoted to death thousands of souls, form the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof! Here, O death, is they sting! They shall not, cannot escape; for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it. Here, O grave is thy victory Nations yet unborn, or ever they have done good or evil are doomed never to see the light of life, but thou shalt gnaw upon them for ever and ever! Let all those morning stars sing together, who fell with Lucifer, son of the morning! Let all the sons of hell shout for joy! For the decree is past, and who shall disannul it?"

29. Yea, the decree is past; and so it was before the foundation of the world. But what decree? Even this: "I will set before the sons of men 'life and death, blessing cursing.' And the soul that chooseth life shall live, as the soul that chooseth death shall die." This decree whereby "whom God did foreknow, he did predestinate," was indeed from everlasting; this, whereby all who suffer Christ to make them alive are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God," now standeth fast, even as the moon, and as the faithful witnesses in heaven; and when heaven and earth shall pass away, yet this shall not pass away; for it is as unchangeable and eternal as is the being of God that gave it. This decree yields the strongest encouragement to abound in all good works and in all holiness; and it is a well-spring of joy, of happiness also, to our great and endless comfort. This is worthy of God; it is every way consistent with all the perfections of his nature. It gives us the noblest view both of his justice, mercy, and truth. To this agrees the whole scope of the Christian Revelation, as well as all the parts thereof. To this Moses and all the Prophets bear witness, and our blessed Lord and all his Apostles Thus Moses, in the name of his Lord: "I call heaven and earth to record against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that thou and thy seed may live." Thus Ezekiel: choose life, that thou and thy seed may live;"Thus Ezekiel: (To cite one Prophet for all:) "The soul that sinneth, it shall die: The son shall not bear" eternally, "the iniquity of the father. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (18:20.) Thus our blessed Lord: "If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink." (John 7:37.) Thus his great Apostle, St. Paul: (Acts 17:30:) "God commandeth all men everywhere to repent; -- "all men everywhere;" every man in every place, without any exception either of place or person. Thus St. James: "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him." (James 1:5.) Thus St. Peter: (2 Pet. 3:9:) "The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." And thus St. John: " If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father; and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:1, 2.)

30. O hear ye this, ye that forget God! Ye cannot charge your death upon him! "`Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?' saith the Lord God." (Ezek. 18:23ff.) "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions where by ye have transgressed, -- for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God. Wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked. -- Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33:11.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by Ken Harris with corrections by Ryan Danker and George Lyons of Northwest Nazarene University (Nampa, Idaho) for the Wesley Center for Applied Theology. © Copyright 1999 by the Wesley Center for Applied Theology. Text may be freely used for personal or scholarly purposes or mirrored on other web sites, provided this notice is left intact. Any use of this material for commercial purposes of any kind is strictly forbidden without the express permission of the Wesley Center at Northwest Nazarene University, Nampa, ID 83686. Contact webadmin@wesley.nnu.edu for permission or to report errors. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: christianlist
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To: CCWoody
Let's see if Ward can remember the quote from before and after that line.

BUSTED!

I've got the place, the look, it's Han and Leia and it's Han's line...

In fairness (okay I was boasting, so I can't scream fairness), but we haven't watched the first three as much since Episode I came out.

1,021 posted on 03/01/2002 2:54:24 PM PST by Ward Smythe
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
When you get a chance can you take a look at my #908? Thanks.
1,022 posted on 03/01/2002 3:05:27 PM PST by Ward Smythe
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To: winstonchurchill
Please quit being an accuser of the brethren. It is certainly clear that you hate our theology ...

Winston, they're accusing you of "satanic influence" (accuser of the brethren......who could that be?....SAATAN!!)

It happens when I disagree with the mind-cult line. You're of a more direct disposition when you call their construct, non-christian, and you act at these times like their own "ortho" and "aggressive." Makes them angry, but they cannot see it in the opposite direction.

1,023 posted on 03/01/2002 3:25:00 PM PST by xzins
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To: xzins
According to Calvin God is directly responsible for every evil act ever committed

ya may want to ask him to cite his source..

1,024 posted on 03/01/2002 3:32:04 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: xzins
You're of a more direct disposition when you call their construct, non-christian, and you act at these times like their own "ortho" and "aggressive." Makes them angry, but they cannot see it in the opposite direction.

Well, I learned this afternoon that their constant harping on error (which I had heretofore regarded as merely obnoxious) is actually misleading sound people astray and into their brutal and callous doctrines.

I admit to being more than a little upset by that. They are now not merely prideful, puffed up and smug in their prattling and preening, their constant misstatements are leading some of Christ's "little ones" astray.

The frozen chosen are sowing weeds. We need some Scriptural 'Round-Up" here.

1,025 posted on 03/01/2002 3:44:32 PM PST by winstonchurchill
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To: RnMomof7; CCWoody, Jerry_M; OrthodoxPresbyterian; the_doc; Wrigley
On the Sovereignty of God.

"But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him." -Job 23:13,14

"For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. The Lord bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect. The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations." -Psalm 33:9-11

"Lift not up your horn on high: speak not with a stiff neck. For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another." Psalm 75:5-7

"The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand" -Isaiah 14:24 (emphasis mine)

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun,and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the postsherd strive with the postserds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that foashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even, my hands have stretched out the heavens, and oall their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts." -Isaiah 45:5-13 (emphasis mine)

"Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying. My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." -Isaiah 46:8-11 (emphasis mine)

Jean

(I'm tempted to let FTD know that THE Bible (KJV) declares that God does indeed create evil *grin*)

1,026 posted on 03/01/2002 5:04:03 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: RnMomof7; Jerry_M; CCWoody; fortheDeclaration; xzins
ftD's #1006 to RnMom: Well, the 'god' depicted by John Calvin is no more the God depicted in the Bible then the ones the Mormons hold to.

There! See that? ftD and I disagree. He is wrong of course about us, but the rest of his post is very good! There is just no escaping the fact that the god the Calvinists propose cannot predetermine all of our choices without being the author of evil and the enemy of God-given free will. This is contrary to the teaching of the Bible, and the love, mercy, and justice of God.

1,027 posted on 03/01/2002 5:05:46 PM PST by White Mountain
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To: Jean Chauvin
Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not;...
1,028 posted on 03/01/2002 5:06:26 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: CCWoody
Your #433: When I die, I will have my God, my Radiant Morning Star

So will I.

Jesus: Repent, and believe in (live according to) the gospel.

White Mountain: Repent, and believe in the gospel.

So from what do you invent the rest of your post? Why do you make up these false accusations, and bear this false witness, for which you owe me an ever greater apology?

Do you not preach "another gospel", which says that the god you propose predetermined all our choices, even Satan's, and so the god you propose is the author of evil and the enemy of God-given free will? That is not the way God is!

Jesus: Repent.

White Mountain: Repent

Yes, Woody, you need to repent and believe in the gospel. The Lord's arm is stretched out still.

1,029 posted on 03/01/2002 5:17:16 PM PST by White Mountain
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To: Jean Chauvin; RnMomof7; CCWoody, Jerry_M; OrthodoxPresbyterian; the_doc; Wrigley; xzins...
Your #1026, after quoting a number of fine Bible passages: (I'm tempted to let FTD know that THE Bible (KJV) declares that God does indeed create evil *grin*)

These passages do indeed declare God's omnipotence, foreknowledge, etc., but they do not say that God creates evil or predetermines all our choices.

There are some passages you could quote, such as: "... shall there be evil in a city and the Lord hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6b) that are a bit more of a challenge, but those you quoted aren't the ones.

1,030 posted on 03/01/2002 5:35:20 PM PST by White Mountain
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To: Jean Chauvin
(I'm tempted to let FTD know that THE Bible (KJV) declares that God does indeed create evil *grin*)

Was that an evil grin? ;-)

1,031 posted on 03/01/2002 5:51:27 PM PST by Ward Smythe
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To: White Mountain
"These passages do indeed declare God's omnipotence, foreknowledge, etc., but they do not say that God creates evil or predetermines all our choices."

"I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun,and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the postsherd strive with the postserds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that foashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even, my hands have stretched out the heavens, and oall their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts." -Isaiah 45:5-13 (emphasis mine)

Right there in black and white, in the King's English!

Jean

1,032 posted on 03/01/2002 6:26:05 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: Ward Smythe
"Was that an evil grin? ;-)"

You could probably say that, but you'd have to go back to the greek or hebrew to varify! ^grin^

Jean

1,033 posted on 03/01/2002 6:28:08 PM PST by Jean Chauvin
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To: Jean Chauvin
"These passages do indeed declare God's omnipotence, foreknowledge, etc., but they do not say that God creates evil or predetermines all our choices."

I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil.....

.....Right there in black and white, in the King's English!

You actually believe this means God is some skitzo who creates moral evil...and then turns around and judges this same "evil" and fries people in Hell for it?
What a warped and monstrous characterization of our Holy and gracious God.

This passage is NOT saying that God is the ultmate creator of "moral evil" ( which would make Him a hypocrite and phoney in the rest of the Bible for condemning it)...BUT rather it is refering to God bringing disaster (as opposed to peace) in response to the sins of man.

It's amazing how Calvinists can distort scripture to paint a picture of an evil and sadistic God. How sad!

1,034 posted on 03/01/2002 6:55:56 PM PST by Jorge
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To: xzins, CCWoody, Jerry_M, the_doc, RnMomof7, Ward Smythe
I suspect xzins is viscerally opposed to the doctrine that infants enter the world speaking lies. Just read his posts on the subject. ~~ It's a "triumph" psalm that speaks of the conflict between the wicked and the godly. It says that the godly are gonna wash their feet in the blood of the wicked....guess we're gonna take that one literally, right?

If the Bible says it, I am prepared to believe it.

I believe what the Bible says....
.....No matter what.

But the passage you cite:

Actually speaks of "the righteous" as a singular individual. Now, it's possible that it is hereby speaking of "the righteous man" in general, i.e., any righteous redeemed man. But the singular usage suggests that it is speaking of The Righteous Man in particular, the Conquering Messiah who returns to earth for the purpose of destroying His enemies and throwing them into Hell. As such, it is probably cross-referential to the prophecy thereafter given in Isaiah 63:3-4, where Jesus declares the coming of His Day of Wrath, when he will slaughter all the enemies of the Father:

Since Vengeance belongs to the Lord, I tend to regard Psalm 58:10 as bespeaking the Wrath of the Lamb. Not "the righteous man" in general, but The Righteous Man in particular, shall be the One who will wrathfully wash His feet in the blood of the wicked, and spatter their blood upon His garments.

And according to Deuteronomy 32: 40-43, the Redeemed of the Lord are not to take vengeance themselves (Hebrews 10:30), but rather to rejoice when the Lord slaughters His enemies:

But does your "theology" allow this? Can you obey the Command of the Lord to rejoice when He makes His arrows drunk with the blood of the slain?

I rather doubt it.

Your "theology" does not allow you to read the Bible as it is written.
Gosh, you hate the Bible as it is written. Your "theology" compels you to re-word the Bible.

Because your "theology" is Anti-Biblical.

It says that these wicked folks begin going astray as soon as they're born. Well, it also says that they're like poisonous young snakes and that God should kill them while they're young.

Actually, it says,

"Cubs" do not have "great teeth". They do not have "great teeth" until they are grown into Young Lions, imitators of their father the Devil, who "as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter 5:8)

But the Elect have no cause to fear these young lions. Jesus of Nazareth intends to break their teeth (Psalm 58:6), trample them underfoot and splatter their blood upon His garments (Isaiah 63:3-4) and make His arrows drunk with their blood (Deuteronomy 32: 40-43). We, His People, simply rejoice; for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries.

Then they'll go to heaven, no doubt. Killing babies for Jesus.

No, the Psalmist says that Jesus is going to break their teeth as young lions, not as cubs. They will grow into years of accomplished Blasphemy before He, in His Wrath, tramples them underfoot and spatters their blood upon His garments.

After all, if His Father intended to Elect them unto Heaven as infants, He could call them home in infancy, if He saw fit.

But He has seen fit to permit the Reprobate to grow into "young lions" before He makes His arrows drunk with their blood.

Actually, the point of the psalm is that Judgement will eventually fall on those evil ones who seem to glide by without anyone apparently keeping them in line

Actually, the point of the Psalm is to believe what it says.

To a Calvinist, it is not really that hard to believe that God says what he means, and means what He says.

At least, that is the CALVINIST approach to Scripture.

1,035 posted on 03/01/2002 7:06:28 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Please answer my question from post #1005
1,036 posted on 03/01/2002 7:24:59 PM PST by ShadowAce
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
To a Calvinist, it is not really that hard to believe that God says what he means, and means what He says.

Then you believe God when He says it is NOT His desire that ANYBODY should perish..but that ALL should repent and be saved.

1,037 posted on 03/01/2002 7:42:11 PM PST by Jorge
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To: ShadowAce, RnMomof7, CCWoody, Jerry_M, the_doc
OK. So infants enter the world speaking lies, thus sinning. Yet you claim that these same infants enter heaven--but these same infants who die have never repented of their sins, so you are claiming that God is bringing unrepentant sinners into heaven--correct? I don't believe that is biblical at all.

I don't believe that God brings unrepentant sinners into Heaven.

I believe that God is the Creator of Repentance. Mature, adult belivers are capable of manifesting Repentance, but God Alone is the giver of every good and perfect gift.

Do you believe that Penitence is required for Salvation? I believe that John the Baptist was Saved from his mother's womb.

If Repentance is required for Salvation... and John the Baptist was Saved... then God must be able to create Penitence in even an unborn child.

Oh, you say to me, Infants cannot manifest their God-created Penitence? Well, I will freely grant that, to our darkly-seeing mortal eyes, regenerate infants cannot demonstrably manifest Penitence. I mean, sure, maybe if you brought the Unborn Messiah into the very presence of a Penitent Unborn, they might dance about the womb for joy (Luke 1:44), or something like that. But otherwise your Mortal Eyes would have no idea that God had created Penitence in such a little one!!

But who cares what your Mortal Eyes can see?
Man looks upon the outward appearance (1 Samuel 16:7), but God directs the hearts wherever He wills (Proverbs 21:1).

1,038 posted on 03/01/2002 7:42:22 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: ShadowAce, RnMomof7, CCWoody
Please answer my question from post #1005 1036 posted on 3/1/02 8:24 PM Pacific by ShadowAce

Done. #1038.

I'm never going to run out of answers, Shadow... the Bible is on my side!!

1,039 posted on 03/01/2002 7:43:57 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: Jorge, CCWoody, RnMomof7, Jerry_M
Then you believe God when He says it is NOT His desire that ANYBODY should perish..but that ALL should repent and be saved.

2 Peter 3:9 is Peter's epistle to those who have been granted faith (2 Peter 1:1), not "Peter's epistle to everyone and their dog".

God is not willing that Any to whom Peter is writing should Perish. Which proves the Calvinist Fifth Point, the Preservation of the Elect.

Seriously, Jorge, if you can show me where Peter prefaced his epistle, " to them that have obtained like precious faith with us and everyone else and their dog", I'll accept your reading.

Until then, I will accept that Peter was writing his letter to the people he specifically addressed.
That is why Peter, like, addressed a specific group of people, and stuff.

1,040 posted on 03/01/2002 7:49:27 PM PST by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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