Why I Believe Predestination

Okay, I did not used to believe predestination. I used to believe free will and did not know any better. When I first heard of predestination, I was horrified and actually angry. It seemed like it made God into some horrible monster. After a lot of study though, I had to change my mind and I now embrace predestination, often resulting in having to defend it to shocked Christian friends. Hopefully, this defense will help others understand my thinking.

First, if free will is accurate, why hasn’t an Almighty God been able to convince everyone to come and have eternal life if he wants everyone to be saved? Doesn’t Scripture say God’s will is accomplished? I think it does. If I am correct on this, predestination is the only logical position because Arminians would make God into a liar when he says he wants to save "all," yet he is too weak to do so (in the free will view of things). Let’s look at some examples of what the Bible says about God’s power:

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

And God did it only because "it seemed good in [His] sight." The fact that God can reveal and hide the truth from people indicates his sovereignty to me and indicates that he has ultimate dominion over what occurs and his will is what gets done.

6 Whatever the LORD pleases He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deep places.

3 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

It should be noted here that God says He will harden Pharaoh’s heart himself! Scripture also says later simply that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, however obviously it was because of God as the LORD has said here. I think that is interesting because in my view, it shows that if one did not read the verse above first, they would think Pharaoh just simply hardened his heart by himself. I think we have similar thinking in the New Testament where people assume we choose God by ourselves since that is what it looks like when you read it in a non-close manner and don’t look at the big picture of things. I know I made that mistake.

6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and brings up.

8 He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the beggar from the ash heap, to set them among princes and make them inherit the throne of glory. "For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and He has set the world upon them.

9 He will guard the feet of His saints, but the wicked shall be silent in darkness. "For by strength no man shall prevail.

So here it says that God gives and takes life, changes the earthly welfare of people, even puts people into governmental power! Yes, God is powerful and I don’t see any hint of him not being able to do whatever he pleases. Remember above where it said almost exactly "he does whatever he pleases." God gets his will accomplished and it covers EVERYTHING.

27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together

35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; he does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"

God does his will in heaven and earth! NOBODY can restrain his hand. This is a pretty powerful passage and a humbling one....

27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

God himself says that there is NOTHING too hard for him. Now, how can this be if there is free will, God wants all to be saved, yet not everyone is? I think the solution is then that not everyone was meant to be and the fact man is sinful makes that case stronger. I will talk about that later.

2 "I know that You can do everything, and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You.

NO purpose of God’s can be kept from being realized. When God wants to do something, it gets done!

Philippians 2:13 tells us: "It is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

God works in us to fulfill his will! Ultimately, it is his will that is accomplished!

I think the above Scriptures are plenty to demonstrate the power of God. God is King and when he wills something, it will be accomplished. There is a reason why the NT always talks about Christ purchasing salvation or his death being a ransom and I haven’t at least yet found something where anyone writes saying "and the cross made it possible that I could have life and I chose him."......I think God willed something specific behind the death of Christ. If there was free will instead of predestination, God’s will was not accomplished to save everyone. Therefore, I think God had to will to save only a lot of people, not everyone. I believe he had to have predestined certain people to be saved or the Cross would well, end up being a failure since not everyone has come like God intended (if free will would be right). Next, I will talk about the sinful nature of man and ask how people can come to Christ when they hate him. I will conclude this little discussion with some Scriptural support for predestination. So.....you see I am first coming here trying to address the nature of God and then the nature of man which raises questions as to how we can even have free will....and then directly address predestination specifically. The issues of God’s sovereignty and the nature of people is ultimately what underlies predestination so I am addressing them first and tying them to predestination.

What is the nature of man? Well, people DID have free will at one time. We had a completely free will at the Garden of Eden before Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. However, after that, the Bible says our will is enslaved. Once we believe in Christ, we no longer are enslaved to sin, though we still struggle with it. But, natural man (unsaved people) IS enslaved to sin and can’t know God. Let’s look at Scripture on this topic.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Now, in this passage, it says that the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing (the unsaved). In the last verse, it speaks of those who God has "called" as not being caught up in the foolishness and instead coming to God and recognizing the Gospel. So here we see the cross is not a message the world loves and people hate it unless God "calls" them....in this passage calling refers to God’s action of bringing someone to himself and since he does not do this with everyone, predestination is implied I think.

1 Cor 2:11-14
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man WITHOUT the Spirit DOES NOT ACCEPT the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him, and he CANNOT UNDERSTAND THEM, because they are spiritually discerned.

In this verse, we see a person without the Spirit does not accept and can’t understand God’s truth of the Gospel. Thus, the Spirit has to do its work to make someone recognize this truth and he works on only some people and logic would dictate I think that these people would be the predestined ones since I don’t know what alternative solution there can be.

Rom 6:20-23
20 When you were SLAVES to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in DEATH!
22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You see here, when one is not saved, they are slaves to sin! Their enslavement results in death, not just physical, but spiritual. Remember the Garden of Eden when God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit? Well, they did not die, did they? Actually.....they did not die physically, BUT in reality, they did die spiritually. They became estranged from God after the Fall and so did all of the human race. We all inherited Adam’s sin.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

We were DEAD in our sins. How can a dead man resurrect himself? It is only by the grace of God and His working in us that we can and we can’t even initiate it since we are dead. When we are saved, he brings us back to life.

17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

The fleshly sinful nature is CONTARY to the spirit. They are at war, not at harmony. How is it possible for a dead, enslaved man to come to faith unless the Spirit makes the first move and actually changes him (converts him) FIRST before the person makes a profession of faith himself? Since God has not sent the Spirit to convert everyone, everyone was not intended to be saved and have a new nature placed in them.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

The mind of the unsaved is against God and can’t even be subject to God’s law. He can’t know God by his own action. God again must do something to ensure his salvation if he wants him saved.

Now, we have seen God is sovereign and all-powerful. We have seen he does what he wishes and accomplishes his will. We have seen all people are infected with the sin of Adam and Eve and how we hate God and can’t even know him in our state of being when we are not saved. Since this is the case, God has chosen to do something about it since well, obviously some are saved! If he did not, nobody would be saved since our nature is to hate God. God could not have even just made salvation possible for all on the Cross since nobody would come due to our natures. Therefore, I now turn to evidence that directly addresses predestination in Scripture. I believe this is what God did to solve the problem of our depravity and his desire to save people on the cross. I believe the Cross was meant to save a group of people, not just be there for everyone in a possibility, for Scripture refers to the Cross as accomplishing something all the time. Of course, predestination does not mean we aren’t to evangelize, for the Gospel is how God works in people’s hearts to save those he wants to save, the predestined.

This is Jesus saying that every single person God wants and draws to Christ WILL come to Him and accept Christ. God gives people to Christ and that is significant because it shows not everyone has been selected by God to be given to Christ or we would all be saved since it says "all....the father gives me shall come...." It also shows that God does take a very active role in our salvation...in fact, the lead role by taking charge and giving us to Christ.

John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

That verse is a parallelism, showing that the ones that believe Jesus is the Son of God are also the ones that God GIVES Jesus. God has given a people to Christ to be his followers.

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse is big and goes back to the sinful nature of man also. NOBODY can come to Christ (Jesus is speaking here, by the way) unless the Father draws him! We are filthy sinners in our natural state and can’t come and that is why this is so. Jesus makes it clear here GOD DRAWS US...we don’t just come and get saved. It is God’s will exercised which results in our salvation. Everyone the father gives Christ will come; THEY HAVE NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER. I think that is a really important point here..... Who gets drawn? Well, I would argue a predestined people. Otherwise, God is just drawing people without a set purpose, which is not what he does. He always has a systematic purpose for things and the Cross itself was a systematic thing. It was all planned out. Scripture shows that in passages I already showed earlier.

8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Names are put in the book of life from the beginning of time, "the foundation of the world." This supports predestination because God wrote names of some people and ignored the names of others. Now, some say, "God predestined based on the foreknowledge of God." While I don’t argue with this (one passage even says, "predestinated according to the foreknowledge of God" in the NT), the interpretation is wrong. The Bible does not say we are predestined because God foresaw that we would accept him (this is what most think of when they see "foreknowledge"). 1 Pet 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied." Now, the verse I just quoted is what I am talking about. Nobody can truly bring out of this a view that God predestined as a result of our coming to him. First, you can’t take that from the text since that is taking a lot of liberty with a very narrow phrase "elect according to the foreknowledge". Second, left to free will, we would all reject God (remember above where we are all enslaved to sin in our natural state). Third, foreknowledge, by necessity, IMPLIES GOD’S ORDAINING OF ACTIONS AND EVENTS. After all, for one thing, unless God ordained who would be saved, he would not be able to see who would come to him anyway since otherwise there would be no definite events and well, also nobody would come due to their rebellious nature. He would only have chaos and nothing to see.

"In this verse the term foreknowledge is an expansion of the idea of God's "counsel" or plan, regarding it as an intelligent prearrangement, the idea of foreknowledge being assimilated to that of foreordination. The same idea is found in <1 Pet 1:20>. Here the apostle speaks of Christ as a lamb "foreordained" by God before the foundation of the world. The Greek verb proegnosmenou, meaning literally, "foreknown" (as in the Revised Version (British and American)) is translated "foreordained" in the King James Version. It is evidently God's foreordination of Jesus as Saviour which Peter has in mind. Also in <1 Pet 1:2> those to whom the apostle is writing are characterized as "elect according to the foreknowledge (prognosis) of God," where the election is based on the "foreknowledge." By the prognosis or foreknowledge, however, far more is meant than prescience. It has the idea of a purpose which determines the course of the Divine procedure. If it meant simply prevision of faith or love or any quality in the objects of the election, Peter would not only flatly contradict Paul <Rom 9:11; Eph 1:3-4; 2 Tim 1:9>; but also such a rendering would conflict with the context of this passage, because the objects of election are chosen "unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of .... Christ," so that their new obedience and relation to Christ are determined by their election by God, which election springs from a "foreknowledge" which therefore cannot mean a mere prescience."

Thus, this really supports my position, (even the non-Calvinist Bible Dictionary admits foreknowledge needs God’s ordaining of something to go along with it anyway) that God sent Christ to die for specific people and the Holy Spirit converts those predestined when they hear the Gospel.

16 "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been APPOINTED to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29, 30, "For whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son...moreover whom he did predestine them he also called, them he called, these he also justified, these he justified, these he also glorified."

8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, and her beloved, who was not beloved."

26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' there they shall be called sons of the living God."

Okay, here it speaks of predestination (election) in the parenthesis for those not yet even born! Paul goes on to say here that there is no unrighteousness with God for selecting one person over another for salvation and goes on to quote the OT where God said he would have mercy on whom he would have mercy and harden whom he will. Then Paul knows someone will cry out and say, "How can God condemn me when it is his will that has damned me!?" Well, Paul comes back and asks how one can talk back to God when the Potter made us, the clay to fulfill his purposes. He goes on to say God created vessels (people) for honor and dishonor.

Ephesians 1:5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love, having predestined us to adoption as children by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will"

11: "In whom we also have obtained an inheritance being predestined according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will."

I Thessalonians 1:4, "Remember without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in Jesus Christ in the sight of God and our Father; knowing brethren beloved, you election with God."

This verse speaks of remembering our election (predestination). The Bible doesn’t view it as a horrid and cruel thing of God. The writers recognized it as a wonderful thing and something that we, as Christians, should rejoice at. PRAISE GOD THAT HE HAS SAVED ME WHEN I KNOW WITHOUT HIM I WOULD HAVE REFUSED TO HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIM!!!!!!!

2 Thessalonians 2:13, "But we are bound to give thanks always for you to God, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

Here in the Psalms we see the belief that God MADE someone trust in him. God didn’t just let some free will lead them wherever.....he actually made them come and trust in Him. What a radical concept and so foreign to what we are used to thinking!

John 17:1-3:
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

God has given Christ authority over all flesh and ordained that He should give eternal life "to as many" as God gave him. Not more, not less....but "to as many" as God wanted saved.

I hope this helps you to understand more of my beliefs and I hope it has made you think. I want to make sure you remember how Scripture says we are dead in sin before we are saved and it is something to ponder how one can be saved if this is true unless God predestined you to be saved and passed over someone else. It seems really harsh of God and it almost makes God seem mean and evil to save some, yet not try to save others. But, I must remember Paul in Romans 9, when he said who are we to judge God. I must remember that predestination is "for the good pleasure of His will" and it isn’t all about me. God does it this way because he wants to. I can’t judge God for it, though sometimes I would like to do so. God knows more than I can ever imagine about what is true, about what is right and God is more holy than even one little cell of my body. God is more perfect than the most perfect creation of man by a million miles and I must remember I am not God.....I am just a creature he made to bring him glory and yet I must bow my knees in thanksgiving that he gave me life, I must bow my knees in thanksgiving for saving me of all the people when I would blaspheme his name in my old ways! Praise be to his Holy name. I must remember also that if God was really fair, I would be in hell right now. His grace in choosing me is more than I can ever understand. His grace in choosing you is great indeed. Thank God for his love shown to you. Even if you don’t believe predestination after reading this, thank God for saving you. Thank God for his mercy and grace. Thank God that he raised you out of the pit and mire of your former self and changed you to love him and begin to show your love to others. Predestination might not be fair, but it sure is a lot better than free will, since everyone would have to reject God by their sinful nature, in my reading of Scripture.

Often there is an analogy to Jesus as a life raft that we can just grab on to in order to save ourselves. I believe that to be a wrong analogy since well, an unsaved person is not drowning spiritually, he is already dead according to Scripture. So, here is my version of this analogy and what I consider the Gospel: When I lay dead on the bottom of a turbulent sea, God took pity and only out of his mercy alone, sent his Son Jesus down to me. Jesus dove to the bottom of the lake and resurrected me. I could not have done anything....I was dead spiritually. I was a goner and could not have came back to life at all unless Jesus made me. On that bottom of the lake, he gave me life and showered me with his loving arms, taking me to the top of the lake and bringing me to safety. I then arose, full of the new life. Jesus was not a life raft that I grabbed onto, he was a doctor who came TO ME and gave me life. I am forever thankful.

God bless you and may you trust in him and find peace whether you end up believing predestination or not.

"Let us then ascribe the whole work of grace to the pleasure of God's Will. God did not choose us because we were worthy, but by choosing us He makes us worthy." Thomas Watson

Didn't mean to post to you specifically, but to board in general. Especially those professing Calvinists out there.

To me the question seems very valid. If God could, at his good pleasure "elect" a people to himself, then what is the necessity of a sacrifice for our sin? If God chooses to "make us alive, spiritually", totally apart from any action on the part of spiritually dead mankind, than our salvation is a work of God the Father ,and Him alone.

If Salvation is the work of the Father, the actions of the Son seem to be quite meaningless. This really goes against scripture.

God could have, at His good pleasure, "elected" a people without the necessity of sending the Son. The soverignty of God is reason enough to "elect" a people, but obviously this is not the case in scripture.

T= total depravity.... ok

U= unconditional election....ok

L= limited atonement.... why is any atonement needed if God need simply elect one for salvation?

The term 'elect' is used many times in scripture and your misunderstand of it and confusion about who the elect are is your problem and causes you to chase after a false man-made doctrine that denies the mercy of God. Sometimes 'elect' refers to the Isrealites, sometimes others, as in

Col 3:12:

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, long- suffering;

Paul is speaking to those who are believers and live in Colosse. The first impression is that he is speaking to Gentile believers here, but by reading the whole book and watching exactly what he is saying, it becomes clear that these are converted Jews he is speaking to. Look - for example - at the following verse where he speaks of them at one time being alienated from God. The Gentiles were never 'alienated from God', for they never recognized God. To be alienated from someone, you first had to be joined to them in some manner.

Col 1:21:

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

God reconciled them to Him through the blood of Christ, of course and they choose to accept salvation. No 'predestination' was involved.

Your problem and others who believe this false doctrine is that you are so intent on finding the word 'elect' in scripture in order to justify your doctrine that you see the word, get all giddy and immediately offer it up as a 'proof' of your belief, without doing the hard work of reading the scripture, understanding the context and the real meaning of this common word. Because you choose to follow a man-made doctrine that claims 'only' the 'elect' will be saved, doesn't mean that every time the word appears in scripture it validates your premise. far from it. Careful and clear research into the use of the word shows that Paul was not speaking of a 'elect' as you define it but those who were now saved, through grace.

Since you choose to use the apostle Paul as an example, let us look at more from this great servant of God, shall we?

Romans 3:21:

But now a righteouness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteouness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.There is no difference for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justied freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

'All' have sinned, 'All' are justified that accept Christ. No 'elect' mentioned by Paul because there isn't any.

Seems pretty clear to most, but no, you'll probably attempt to convince folks that the saved were predestined to be saved, that's all. It pains me to know that you will cling to your foolish, error-filled man-made doctrine and ignore God's Word on this matter. Is it just stubborn pride that drive otherwise sensible and religious people to embrace heresy - a lie? Whatever the motivation, you are so very wrong, you are disparaging God and you should be ashamed. Your doctine simply cannot stand the light of day or the truth of God's Word.

I await your response and I'm sure it will be interesting. I enjoy seeing attempts to state that scripture contradicts itself when your pet verses don't mesh with others, especially out of context.

1 Timothy 2:1-4 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

You have brought forward a single passage which may be said to argue for "Unlimited Atonement." But HERE is where you commit a theological Error.

For you will tell me that this passage does directly instruct us to pray for God to effectually accomplish nothing less than the actual salvific redemption of "All men" without exception, every single individual member of the human race. But, in addition to asserting that God deliberately Wills the Salvation of every man without exception, and that His will is thus billions of times Overthrown, to assert what you do is very nearly to risk the Anathema in pursuit of defeating Calvinism!! For does He not tell us in the Revelation of Christ unto John:

Revelation 22:18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

And what also has He told us in Revelation, than the certainty that NOT "All Men without Exception" shall be saved?

Revelation 13:7-8 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is a True Prophecy of God; What Heresy, then, is this: that you should advise us that Paul teaches Timothy to pray for nothing less than that this very PROPHECY OF GOD -- (that NOT "All Men" shall be saved) -- should be overthrown?!?! That God has Foreknown and Prophesied to Us that NOT All men will be saved, but that -- so you tell us -- we should nonetheless pray for this Word of Prophecy to be Removed from the Book of Prophecy??? For Jesus Christ has said, regarding prayers according to His Will,

John 14:13-14 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

So if you claim that it be according to His Will that we pray for the actual Salvific Redemption of every single human individual without exception, then you are claiming that Paul teaches us to pray for the Removal of those very Prophecies of which Christ says to John, it were a grave sin for any to Remove!!

But if this is not a Right understanding of this passage (and it is not, for you may NOT set Paul to War with John and Christ), then how should we read it? Is the weakness in the "desire" of the Lord (verse 4) that "all men" should be saved? No, for this is an effective desire, both to Wish and to Will; indeed, this same Greek word, for "desire", is found in Romans 9: 18 -- So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.; and this is a powerful Desire indeed, by which He has raised up pharoahs and ruled the affairs of men and nations!!

But the misunderstanding is to be found, in the treatment of "all men". For if it is taught as meaning, "all men" without exception, then in this verse, we are being taught to pray against the revealed prophecies of John’s Apocalypse. But if the verse is understood as having reference to verses 1 and 2, which immediately precede it, then we see in this our duty to pray for Kings and all in Authority and "all men" without distinction; even as He is pleased to save "all men" without distinction; -- though not "all men without exception", for not "all men without exception" will be saved, as is Revealed in the Apocalypse of John. And there are numerous other passages in Scripture where this same Greek word for "all" is translated in this way:

Matthew 4:23--"all manner of disease"
Matthew 5:11--"all manner of evil"
Matthew 10:1--"all manner of sickness"
Luke 11:42--"all manner of herbs"
Acts 10:12--"all manner of four-footed beasts"
Romans 7:8--"all manner of concupiscence"
1 Peter 1:15--"all manner of conversation"
Revelation 21:19--"all manner of precious stone"

You argue my pride is keeping me from seeing your view...I argue that yours is keeping you from seeing God's power and glory.

And right there lies your error. "My view', indeed.

Nice attempt to isolate the crystal clear Word of God and make it 'my view', as if your foolish doctrine is truth.
Once again you get the scripture wrong. Do you never tire of being in error on God's Word?

In the verses quoted from Colossians 1 Paul spoke to converted Jews and that book does speak to Christians but in that city, that church, most were Jews, some Gentiles. I'll not argue the point with you as you have shown that you are not open to discussion, only to justifing your belief.

You started a thread that was clearly intended to provoke discussion while upholding your belief in the absurd, unscriptural and destructive doctrine of predestination. You probably got more than you bargained for.
Some Christians like me don't take kindly to having God's word misused and having people babble on about loving and serving God while they lie about his very Word.

We can trade verses endlessly but I won't use God's Word that way. A few verses make the point and I've given them in previous posts. As I already stated, you take words in scripture such as 'predestined' and 'elect' and, following the lead of that 16th century lawyer, John Calvin, read them literally and continue the foolish doctrine that ststes that man is chosen by God to be saved - becomes a living saint - but man has no part in his election - and those not chosen, oh well. Try as they might, they are doomed. God would send His son to live on earth as a man, die a physical and spiritual death on the cross to save mankind, God's creation...but wait...only some will be saved, because God decided ahead of time who He would choose - according to Attorney and bibical expert John Calvin. What foolishness, unsupported anywhere in scripture.

Do you followers of this sixteenth century lawyer, Calvin, have any idea how simply ridiculous this theology is? How your scrambling around scripture for verses to justify this abberation of God's Word appears to anyone with a brain and who has accepted Christ as his Savior, has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and lives to serve God? You insult not only our creator but our intelligence. Any semi-literate human being can read the bible and see all the references to God wanting ALL men to be saved, Christ died for ALL. No 'special people', no 'predestination' no 'elected' because that was not God's purpose. He predestined us to be his children but clearly left the decision up to us. Not because He needs our help, but because we need to make the choice to accept Christ on our own, freely, not as some robot-people. Your stubborn clinging to this false doctrine is sad, but I will not contend with you much longer. The verses have been posted, the bible speaks, you will continue to embrace false teaching and so be it.

Your 'view' is that of a blind man, unable or unwilling to see the grace of the God you keep claiming to love and serve. Do you believe your man-made, false and misleading doctrine honors God? Really.

I suspect that for you and most of the like-minded Calvinists your hubris at being one of the 'elect' blinds you to the truth so readily apparent to millions of Christians everywhere...but not you, of course. You're 'elected'. You're also in grave error with your doctrine. You may spout it, defend it and proclaim it all you wish but at the endtime, it will still be false and you will answer for it to the One you claim to love. On that day, many will cry out, "Lord, Lord" and He will say to them, "I knew you not". Remember that while basking in your 'electedness'.

I've spent far more time on this futile thread than I intended...

Well, one might assume that you would at least be able to articulate our position, which you cannot.

Your doctrine that you so smugly gloat about and the scripture you totally twist to suit your false doctrine is misleading the unsaved with a foolish and dangerous notion that if you are predestined to hell, why listen to scripture and if you are predestined to heaven, why care what you do? It totally removes Gods grace from mankind, making us mere pieces on a chessboard which is glaringly at odds with not only the scripture itself, but the love and grace of God that all of scripture shows and you, smug in your little Calvinist cocoon, amen-ing each other and feeling, well, so 'elect', I'm surprised you can even bear to mingle with the rest of the 'unelect'.

This is a dreadful accusation on your part and entirely false. I see this with nearly every single non-Calvinist I encounter. You are either lying intentionally about our position or you are misinformed. I will now correct you and after that, I will simply call you a liar for getting it wrong in the future.

To a Calvinist, salvation depends upon a man responding to the Free Offer of the gospel. For you to assert otherwise, is false. Please stop leveling false accusations.

'Predestination' or foreordination is what God did before the world began, as He determined to save man from sin through the sacrifice of His own Son. Those who answer His call through the gospel experience the blessings of that plan now in Christ Jesus. Is that too easy for you?

Do any Calvinist here object to Jim's statement?

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