Posted on 02/18/2002 8:54:15 PM PST by rwfromkansas
Translation: I'm right, you're wrong. Not exactly open-minded are you, rw?
Well, it's not that easy, Kansas.
God wants all of His creation, mankind, to be with him in His kingdom for eternity but sin separates us from a righteous God. We cannot totally overcome sin as it enters into our thoughts as well as our deeds. The apostle Paul was well aware of this and wrote about it; you may have read his letter. Jesus is our savior as He paid the price of sin - spiritual death - for mankind. Mankind could not do it, only the perfect Christ could, and did. To claim that God 'predestined' only a portion of mankind to be with Him in paradise is incorrect in my view as it makes Christ's sacrifice unnecessary. Scripture states that He was 'raised up' (on the cross) so that he would draw all men to him. Jesus spoke of the 'narrow gate' (Christ) that leads to salvation and talked about the 'wide path' that leads to destruction (hell). If 'all men' were 'predestined' to either heaven or hell, who would need a path to follow? Christ made the point that mankind chooses which path to take, which is, ta-da...free will.
Mankind is born with free will - the ability to mentally and emotionally reject God and Christ, and many do. However, all human beings are called to God through many sources, including nature and it's reflection of God's hand. God's plan is for all to come to Him and he reveals Himself to us - often through His word - and opens the door to salvation during our lifetimes but most ignore it and will not accept the gift of salvation. That is free will.
'Predestination' is simply the fact that God choose all of mankind to be his children and live with him but our exercise of free will - God given - takes us away from Him. Our choice, not God's. At Judgement day, when our lives are examined and found wanting, only the blood of Christ will save us, not a human claim that we were 'predestined' to go to heaven so 'let me in'. On that great and fateful day, Jesus will say, "I know him" or "I know him not" but that choice will have been made by us, not God. We accept or reject Jesus Christ on our own. Attempting to 'blame' the creator for our eternal fate is foolish. To attempt to justify that point of view in order to absolve mankind of any complicity in his spiritual fate by cherry-picking scripture and offering 'proof verses' is to misuse scripture, in my opinion.
You are free to espouse any view you choose but issuing pronouncments that instruct those who hold a differing point of view to 'use your brain' and 'read your bible' do not persuade much less convince anyone of your depth of study on this spiritual and scriptual matter of overbearing importance. You might take your own advice.
A note: Reading some of the typical smug, mocking responses on this thread to an issue that has nothing to do with atheists but still draws them to a thread that is a discussion of spiritual matters they claim to find absurd and foolish is interesting. Human beings, breathing the air God provides but rejecting and mocking the idea of His existence. How sad.
Of course they are:
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.BTW, I have just one question for you: When you die, what next? Will you simply fade into oblivion?
Now, just suppose that you are a created being. Would you owe anything to your Creator?
First, I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. Second, the question of free will vs predestination is interesting to non-Christians as well. Third, I am not rejecting the idea of God's existence; I acknowledge it as a possibility. I do reject rwfromkansas's concept of a "loving" God who arbitrarily dooms billions of souls to hell; I find your theory much more reasonable. But I'll retire from this thread and let you guys fight it out amongst yourselves.
You see, rw, Jim here has no clue what Biblical Predestination is all about. Jim, please see Romans 8:28-30 to get you started and then explain to us what the verses are teaching.
BTW, Jim, what you are "preaching" here is very close to a heresy: that is that Adam is a bad example to follow and Jesus is a good example to follow. Inherent in this belief is the complete denial that man is born spiritually dead.
Unscriptural. The point is that He didn't have to choose any, yet He did.
'Predestination' is simply the fact that God choose all of mankind to be his children and live with him but our exercise of free will - God given - takes us away from Him. Our choice, not God's.
Unscriptural. Our state of being away from God took place with the Original Sin committed in the garden of Eden. We are born and shapen in iniquity, ergo, born without a will to choose God and born spiritually dead.
At Judgement day, when our lives are examined and found wanting, only the blood of Christ will save us, not a human claim that we were 'predestined' to go to heaven so 'let me in'.
Unscriptural. It's true that only the Blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world pays for our sin. No one is saying that "predestination" saves any man. But you are attempting to portray it as such. Simply not so. Notice how you've omitted the fact that in order to see Heaven, one must be born again. You can't leave that out!
Attempting to 'blame' the creator for our eternal fate is foolish.
All blame lies at the feet of Adam.
To attempt to justify that point of view in order to absolve mankind of any complicity in his spiritual fate by cherry-picking scripture and offering 'proof verses' is to misuse scripture, in my opinion.
This does not absolve anyone. Also, this is not "cherry-picking," but an inclusion of all scripture.
Try again.
The Word is great, ain't it?
He triple posts the ones He likes.
He triple posts the ones He likes.
1. In using the Bible to support your beliefs you have to use logical arguments such as "The Bible says A therefore B must follow." However, when someone else makes a logical argument that doesn't involve a quote from the Bible, you ridicule him and tell him to go back to his Bible.
My question to you, is why use logic at all? Why not just show the Bible quotes if logic is in and of itself invalid in such discussions? Also if I find a Bible quote that says something to the effect "If you do A then B will follow" doesn't this suggest that logic in and of itself is a good thing?
2. Just because we have finite minds, doesn't mean we can't have any concept of the infinite. In fact we have many concepts of the infinite. We even know about different sorts of infinity (e.g. countably infinite, uncountably infinite, etc.) Just because we can't now, nor maybe ever, fully comprehend the mind of God, doesn't mean we shouldn't always strive to know him better. Some of this striving can be through greater understanding of the Bible, but some of this striving can also be through theological and philosophical speculation. At least that's what Calvin in part tried to do.
3. Calvinists seem to claim that we fools don't get it because we don't understand how a loving God could predestine us to Hell. Maybe it is the Calvinists that don't understand how an all-knowing God could create a universe with enough wiggle room to allow us free will. If you claim that we cannot know the ways of God, then how do you know in which ways we don't understand the ways of God? How are you sure that our lack of understanding is foolishness and your lack of understanding is humility when it could just as easily be vice-versa?
4. From a purely philosophical point of view it might be the case that regardless of whether or not there is a God, we are still predestined. Boris has put forth one argument regarding causality. I have heard another argument that goes something like this: If there is a knowable future, then we are predestined, i.e. if we can travel into the future to a single specific time without branching off into a parallel universe, then we are predestined. Again, if you guys are so keen on predestination, and there are valid philosophical arguments that buttress you beliefs without need for Bible quotes, then why aren't you all over them? Maybe you can get one of the evil atheists or mushy agnostics on this thread to eventually move your way by first getting them to believe in predestination and then later accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior?
5. Your comments, as almost all Calvinists comments on threads such as these, express none of the intelligence or love of the God you claim to speak for. I often wonder why there are so many Calvinists on a website called FreeRepublic. If you are right and most of us are predestined to be continuously burnt and digested by maggots for eternity in a pitch black, stench-filled Hell, then I suppose your childish taunts and vague attempts at logic and reasoning are meant as an annoying poke in the eye from God before he flicks us with his middle finger into our just rewards!
May the peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ be with the Elect.
May the rest of us be blessed with at least a few good steaks, scotches, and friends before becoming quick-fried maggot food.
Thus you believe man has the power to deny God; to overrule His wishes; to accomplish something God Himself does not want accomplished. This puts man above God, a place we most likely agree man can not be. Man can not thwart God.
But while I disagree with most of what you posted, I like your last paragraph. Strange how true that is. I think these contrarians are either first-year college students or non-believers who want to be proven wrong.
They will be.
Since you think that we deny free will, perhaps you would mind doing 2 simple things:
1. Define Biblical Predestination &
2. define free will.
Perhaps, you just don't understand what we believe and so you do 3000 word essays just to show us that you really don't.
"The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope -- fervently do we pray -- that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether."
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