Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn)

[JenB]

Tolkien denied that the events in LotR were based on any 'real' occurences, almost as vehemently as he denied any trace of allegory. From the Foreword: "The real wear does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion....I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations"

If LotR really has any sources, outside Tolkien's own imaginations, it would be North-legends. This strain is particularly apparent in Tolkien's elf-legends; I recently read Kalevala and kept wondering if Tolkien had not written this story too!

[HairOfTheDog]

I believe some lines can be drawn to real world events, but they were not usually drawn by Tolkien himself, though he was undoubtedly influenced. Many of his notes were written during the war, in the trenches.

[Ronnie Radford]

I think you're right on the money. It is definitely a transitionary chapter. Part of the reason for this is that the Hobbit was written for children, specifically one of Tolkien's young relatives (I can't remember which one). To a degree, the first chapter of LOTR reflects a similar style to the Hobbit because Tolkien was still writing with a child audience in mind, and the beginning of the story is therefore light and "hobbity" as you metioned.

Oh yes, could I also be added to the list? Thanks!

[carton253]

What I like is that Tolkien made the Hobbits so human. As Chapter One moves on - there is so much in the Hobbits that we can identify with. We may not hide when the horrid relation comes to the door, but we look at our caller ID and let the machine get it instead.

When reading The Hobbit, I knew the book worked on a much deeper level when not only Thorin died, but Fili and Kili also. I remember saying outloud... "Not Fili and Kili..." And crying... then laughing at myself for crying over dwarves!

Tolkien also has a wicked wit... and not only do his characters say funny things, but the situations they find themselves in are funny. Humor bypasses the head and goes straight to the heart.

At first, I didn't like the idea that Bilbo was going away. I didn't know if I would like this Frodo... but by giving Frodo a colorful supporting cast... causing us to like them and showing us Frodo through their eyes, Tolkien very adroitly weans us from Bilbo to Frodo and before we know it we are off on another adventure. Not with 13 grumpy dwarves, but with 4 Hobbits that we have come to like within the first chapter or two.

[Valin]

I believe Tolkien himself said it was loosely based on historical events.

Sorry "I have received or read concerning the motives and meaning of the tale. The prime motive was the desire of a taleteller to try his hand at a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amsuse them, delight them, and at times excite them or deeply move them."
< snip>
"It's sources are things long before in mind, or in some cases already written, and little or nothing in it was modified by the war that began in 1939 or it's sequels.

[ecurbh]

I know I can certainly relate to hiding from the "relations". I did that a couple of weeks ago when my roommate's annoying little brother stopped by while I was trying to get some stuff done. Luckily, I had the stereo off, so he did not know I was there. I love Gandalf's line when Frodo refuses to answer the door:

"If you don’t let me in, Frodo, I shall blow your door right down your hole and out through the hill."

[Romestamo]

Mae Govannen, Fast-I-Chû (HairOfTheDog). Splendid idea for a thread. I thought I'd offer some historical context for the first chapter by showing they way things are in 1401 SE (3001 of the Third Age):

As we know, Bilbo is turning 111 and Frodo will be 33. Aragorn is 70, Boromir is 23, Sam is 18, Merry is 19, Pippin is 11, Gimli is 222, and Legolas's age is unknown.

Sauron made a secret return to Mordor 59 years ago. Gollum hasn't been captured yet, so Sauron still thinks that the ring is at the bottom of the Anduin.

Saruman has had designs on the ring for the last 150 years. He still hides from the rest of the White Council that the knows where the ring was lost, and has been secretely searching for it.

Smeagol, AKA Gollum, first found the ring 538 years ago.

Gondor has been without a king for 1051 years.

[skeety]

Please add me to your ping list. Thanks...

[Countyline]

Isn't this a wonderful poem?

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And wither then? I cannot say.
- JRR Tolkien

We're already off to a new adventure. I relish the idea and the fun ahead.

Add me to your list, please, if you please.

[carton253]

That is great information... thank you so much.

[jrherreid]

Evidently I'm not worthy of being pinged. Sniff. And yesterday I claimed that Galadriel wasn't Arwen's granny--how could I have been so stupid? That's why I wasn't invited, I'm sure.

[JenB]

HairoftheDog, wanted to make sure you noticed this ping-applicant. Such good taste in poetry!

I am spending part of the afternoon in historical research to provide background for the next chapter. People on this list, if you have not read the Silmarillion, Freepmail me (don't want to clutter the list) so I know how much depth to cover. Otherwise I'll just throw in references to Morgoth and Manwe and expect everyone to know who I'm talking about.

[Romestamo]

Tolkien disliked allegory, but he was not above allusions and inside jokes. Many names and occurences in his works are obscure references that only students Norse and English legends understand (Gandalf, for instance, is the name of a dwarf in a Danish legend. Another example would be Gandalf's passing reference of being referred to as Incanus in the South. Incanus is lating for Greybeard.).

[HairOfTheDog]

I am sorry my friend... (I did not know about your blunder) I would never have snubbed you on purpose... I didn't ping ecurbh's list. Will do that in a few when I find it!

[ecurbh]

Here's the list again:

jrherreid; HairOfTheDog; RosieCotton; billbears; ObfusGate; austinTparty; Texas2step; billbears; Gordian Blade; Heuristic Hiker; Utah Girl; egarvue; paul544; John Farson; Cascadians; Skywalk; lds23; paul544; East Bay Patriot; JenB; Un-PC; toast; Snake65; Thud; HarryDunne; Ted; AUsome Joy; Dstorm; Reborn; Ronnie Radford; ThomasMore; Lucius Cornelius Sulla; Overtaxed; frodolives; Rainbow Rising; Ryle; Wordsmith; Samwise; Goetz_von_Berlichingen; dogbyte12; 2Jedismom; Penny1; dionyza; GretchenEE; Marianne; Varda; Monkey Face; mtngrl@vrwc; redhead; BibChr; Anitius Severinus Boethius; order_of_reason

[jrherreid]

We just recently had a talk out here by Joseph Pearce, author of two books on Tolkien (Tolkien: Man and Myth and Tolkien: A Celebration). During the question and answer section someone asked about the origin of names in LOTR. Mr. Pearce noted that Castel Gondolfo (the summer residence of the Pope) in Italy had been known as Castel Gandalfo in the 1800's and before. The name, of course, would mean "Gandalf's Castle." Nifty, I thought.

And, by the way, Pearce was also involved in a mock trial of Peter Jackson held at Ave Maria University. Jackson was being tried, in absence, for "The Desecration of the Lord of the Rings". Pearce served as defense lawyer, since he loved the movie. He said his key moment in the trial was while cross-examining a fellow who said that the movie was a "gross misrepresentation of Tolkien's work". Pearce asked the man one question. "How many times have you seen the movie?" "Six." The defense rested, and the jury ruled in Jackson's favor.

[HairOfTheDog]

Pinging the One Ping list....

[DonnerT]

Please make me one of your pingees.

[Overtaxed]

is the LoTR written with the expectation that the reader will have already read The Hobbit?

On my first reading, I read LOTR before The Hobbit and didn't have any problems.

[Penny1]

I'm wondering if there's a difference, too, between allegory and allegory.;) Perhaps Tolkien was talking about more strict allegory, along the lines of CS Lewis' Narnia series. It's one thing to have an entire story be an allegory, while on the other hand one can have allusions within a story that are more subtle and less all-encompassing. I do believe that much symbolism is represented in his work, perhaps some of it not even intentional.

At any rate, we are all shaped by the events that surround us, whether we consciosly express that or not. Often things will "bleed through" the writing that the author isn't even necessarily aware of...

-penny