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EXPERT IN PYSCHOLOGY OF ETHNIC CONFLICT CHANGES HIS MIND ABOUT YUGOSLAVIA
Emperor's Clothes ^ | February 9, 2002 | Francisco Gil-White & Jared Israel

Posted on 02/10/2002 10:31:32 AM PST by joan

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To: Tropoljac, crazykatz, spar, gael, bluester
thank you Tropoljac for proving beyond a doubt that you are a neo-fascist apologist.

Francetic and the Domobran were considered beyond the pale even by Himmler's SS their allies ........yet you defend Francetic and his newly created memorial in Slunj, Croatia.

121 posted on 02/12/2002 7:24:06 AM PST by vooch
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To: Gael
HTML> Nacional, Monument to Francetic in Slunj, 6/15/00 used without permission, for "fair use" only

Monument in Slunj:

Provocation or Manipulation?

The men who initiated the construction of the monument, Dragutin Hazler, claims that all those who criticize Francetic support Chetniks; The mayor of Slunj, who is supposed to destroy the monument, says that he is not aware of the case, because he was sick

by Zeljka Godec

Nacional, Zagreb, Croatia, June 15, 2000

Last week, a monument commemorating Jure Francetic was erected in Slunj. Jure Francetic was a Ustashe colonel, and founder of the infamous Black Legion, an elite Ustashe [WWII pro-Nazi regime in Croatia] unit which in the history of WWII became a symbol for mass deportations and executions of Jews, Serbs and Communists. Francetic is personally "credited" with murders of more than 3,000 Serb civilians only on the Romanija Mountain. The monument was erected by the organization Croatian Domobran; it was hailed by Anto Dapic, the president of the Croatian party of Rights (HSP) [extreme-right Croatian political party, pro-Ustashe], and denounced as "a rehabilitation of Ustashe ideology" by others. It has become a first-rate political scandal that was condemned by both the government and the opposition in unison. Uninformed observers, however, would have a hard time to these days decipher the current year in Slunj: is it 1941 or 2000?

Regardless of sharp criticism, Dragutin Hazler, the man who initiated the construction of the monument, a former political émigré and a pharmacist by profession, and the president of the Slunj branch of the Association of War Veterans, Croatian Domobran, believes that he did the right thing. He is adamant: "Those who today criticize Jure Francetic, the most glorious Croatian knight of the Black Legion, who took care of Chetniks [WWII Serb royalist guerrillas who committed crimes against Croats and Bosnian Muslims; Chetniks at times collaborated with the Germans and Italians, and at times fought against them; late in WWII they fought together with Ustashe against Communist Partisans] in eastern Bosnia, and his monument, support Chetniks."

We had little success in trying to get a concrete statement regarding the monument from the mayor of Slunj, Mile Skukan, a HDZ member. We found him while he was riding a motorbike through the town.

"I was ill and did not participate in that. I did not give the Croatian Domobran money for the monument, and I did not give them a permit. No one asked me anything about that." We failed to find out what his reply would have been had Dragan Hazler asked for a permit. The mayor expressed his stand non-verbally. He had his photograph taken together with the mothers of the slain defenders of Croatia, instead of next to the monument.

Ideology and Army

Some locals, on the other hand, do not understand why a small, almost humble, stone monument dedicated to Francetic, has provoked so much media attention. They are surprised to find out that that prompted a visit by the journalists. They are resigned and explain that it would be better if the journalists reported about their dead children, burnt Croatian churches and undamaged Orthodox churches, suggesting that the two, the monument and the Homeland War, as far as they are concerned are one and the same thing. Some are even inclined to claim that journalists are foreign spies...

Only an anonymous voice in the competent municipal office for social activities said that the action of the extremist rightist from Slunj did not enjoy universal support. Croatian Domobrans erected that monument illegally. The law, namely, specifies that nothing can be constructed on the state-owned land without a municipal permit.

However, the locals from Slunj are divided on this matter. They are torn between the facts written during the Communist regime about the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) [pro-Nazi puppet state run by Ustashe during WWII] as a quisling state, about its ideologist Ante Pavelic [Ustashe leader] as a fascist and traitor responsible for dismemberment of Croatia and the fact that the former ruling party [HDZ] flirted with the idea of NDH, allowing that some of its rightist followers interpret the establishment of the NDH as a realization of centuries old dreams about independence.

Who was Jure Francetic? For some inhabitants of Slunj, led by "Croatian domobrans", "a knight who liberated Croats from a Serb-Chetnik aggression". Or as Dragan Hazler described slipping into demagoguery: "We are only interested in Jure Francetic in the ideological sense. We only care about one segment of his personality, his military career and the fact that he courageously, honorably and heroically fought against the most dangerous fascism, the Greater-Serbian-Chetnik fascism."

Hazler is not bothered by the fact that Francetic was a close collaborator of Ante Pavelic, condemned by the whole world because of fascist crimes, discriminatory policy and concentration camps. "Pavelic wanted to get rid of Francetic because he refused to become a pawn in the hands of Germans and Italians. It is quite possible that exactly Pavelic had Francetic killed," Hanzler is convinced, using Communist crimes in Bleiburg and uncountable other crimes committed against Croats as his argument for the commemoration of Jure Francetic.

Life Story

A part of the life story of Jure Francetic can be found in the lexicon "Who was who in the NDH," published three years ago. The entry was written by Zvonko Dizdar from the Croatian Institute for History.

"Francetic, an Ustashe colonel, was born in Prozor [Bosnia-Hercegovina] on July 3, 1921, and died near Otocac on December 27, 1943. He graduated from high school in Krizevci in 1931 and then attended a law school. At the law school he was active in the HSP youth. He was several times arrested and jailed for his political activities. In March 1933 he went to Austria and then to Italy, where he was given the rank of Ustashe captain. When V. Servatzy took over in 1934 the command of the camp in Janko-pusta [in Hungary], Francetic became his deputy. In 1936 he returned to Italy and was interned at the island of Giglio. In late 1937 he returned to Croatia and was banished to his hometown. However, in 1938 he managed to make it to Zagreb, where he intended to continue his studies, but was soon afterwards called up to serve his mandatory military service in Nis [Serbia].

"After the military service he returned to Zagreb and continued to work on Ustashe propaganda, to distribute fliers and brochures. In Lika he recruited and organized new members of the Ustashe movement. Because of these activities he was arrested in late 1940 and sentenced to a term in prison and banishment from Zagreb. In late 1941, he escaped to Germany. After the proclamation of the NDH he returned to the homeland, and Pavelic in April appointed him for an Ustashe governor of Bosnia. In Sarajevo he worked on the establishment of new authorities and the organization of Ustashe military and police units. In September of 1942, after the death of Becir Lokmic, he took over the command of the units of the Sarajevo Ustashe Camp that were soon transformed into the Black legion. After successful actions of the Black Legion in east Bosnia he was promoted to the rank of the Ustashe lieutenant colonel.

"On April 10, 1942, from the banks of the Drina River he sent a telegram to Pavelic stating that the Croatian Army had taken control of the eastern historical borders of the country [NDH included Bosnia-Hercegovina]. He was promoted to the rank of Ustashe colonel after successful actions in Kupres and around Bugojno, where the Black Legion was sent in July 1942.

"In September 1942 he escorted Pavelic during his visits to Hitler and Croatian legionnaires at the eastern front [near Stalingrad]. On the way to a new task in Lika, where he was supposed to take over the command of the local Domobran and Ustashe units, his airplane had a forced landing because of a sabotage on its engine. The airplane landed near the village of Mocilo near Slunj. During the landing, Partisans wounded Francetic seriously and he was transported to Slunj where he died soon afterwards. He was posthumously decorated as a knight and promoted to a higher military rank.

"During his life was been celebrated in songs published in magazines. In 1945 in Zagreb a booklet was published under title 'Folk Songs about Knight Jure Francetic'".

Founder of Black Legion

Hazler has collected the mentioned cutouts from the newspaper "Hrvatski Narod" [Croatian People], which on March 30, 1943 described the circumstances of the death of Jure Francetic, based on the investigation conducted by the Ministry of Armed Forces [of NDH].

"Hrvatski Narod" wrote the following: "Ustashe colonel Jure Francetic headed to Lika from Zagreb on December 22 1942, to conduct his Ustashe and military duties. Ustashe Colonel Francetic flew to Lika in an aircraft piloted by Mija Abicic and was supposed to take over the command of armed forces there upon his arrival.

"Due to an engine failure, the aircraft had to land near the village of Mocilo near Slunj. At the time partisans were stationed in that village. Following the orders of Colonel Francetic, Abicic disabled the aircraft immediately after the landing and drained the oil and fuel from the tanks. After that, Francetic, armed by a machine gun and Abicic, using Francetic's hand gun, headed towards the nearby forest, hoping to break through the enemy lines and reach the closest free settlement.

"They were spotted immediately after the landing and attacked by a larger Partisan group, which was at about 300 meters away from them. Colonel Francetic kept the Partisans at that distance, firing at them from time to time. However, Abicic was wounded in the right side of his belly and Francetic tried to assist him. On that occasion Francetic was also wounded in his belly, but in spite of that he kept firing at the Partisans who were closing in until he ran out of ammunition, after which he disabled his machine gun. Attacked by the incoming mob, Colonel Francetic was hit on the head five times. Unconscious and wounded, he was sent together with Abicic the same day to Slunj, where his wounds were treated... Ustashe Colonel Francetic, an Ustashe veteran, a great Croatian patriot, courageous soldier and extremely capable officer, thus lay his young life on the altar of the homeland."

Continuing the story about Francetic, "Hrvatski Narod" carries the news that Poglavnik [the leader] Ante Pavelic posthumously decorated Francetic and promoted him into a knight. The same day the authorities of the NDH proclaimed national mourning that went on for eight days. In early April, two commemorative masses were held for Francetic.

Volunteers and Domobrans of the Slunj regiment in 1943 erected a monument to Jure Francetic, the commander of the Black Legion, who was at times assisted in this capacity by Rafael Boban. The monument was carved from stone. At the top of the monument there was a cross and a wooden plaque was mounted on the side of the monument. After three months, the monument was destroyed by the [Partisan] brigade led by Hamdija Pozderac, claims Hazler. He avers that the new monument is a copy of the old one, except that it was made from sturdier material. The plaque was produced by company "Signal M" in Zagreb.

Francetic's name was mentioned rarely after the war. A book published in 1973 in Belgrade under the title "The so-called NDH", written by Mladen Colic, mentions Jure Francetic as the founder of the Black Legion, who together with Anto Vokic immediately started forming Ustashe units in Sarajevo and its surroundings...

Monologue With the Past

"When in December 1941 Chetniks carried out terror against the population of Foca, several thousands of refugees from that region gathered around Sarajevo. Francetic and Vokic used this development and from the ranks of these young men, thirsting for blood revenge, picked out men for service in a special Ustashe regiment, which was later named the Black Legion.

"Later Francetic and Vokic split up. Francetic remained the commander of the Black Legion, and Vokic formed a company of the future 2nd regiment of the Ustashe Military Railroad."

The Black Legion was equivalent to a regiment and had about 1,000 members. It was named after the black uniforms worn by its members, and it had the reputation of an elite Ustashe unit. One of the stories in connection with the Black Legion states that they did not wear black uniforms to imitate German soldiers but because they were given black material, normally used for priestly robes, by the priests.

Eugen Dido Kvaternik, one of the chief ideologists of the NDH, a Minister of Internal Affairs, and the commander of the Ustashe intelligence service, gave his assessment of Jure Francetic in his memoirs:

"He was not a military genius. He did not have basic military knowledge and military education, nor did he have any talent for basic military organization. However, he was an ideal man for fighting in Bosnian mountains, especially when Rafo Boban, a born guerrilla and a son of our mountainous Hercegovina, was at his side. Both of them were actually amateurs as far as military matters were concerned, but suitable for improvisation that we needed at the time."

The recent building of the monument to Francetic, who obviously did not command much Kvaternik's respect, provoked a harsh condemnation by the state leadership and the public. Prime Minister Ivica Racan stated that celebration of Ustashe ideology at the beginning of the twenty first century is anachronistic with respect to one's own nation. He emphasized that that action is the achievement of marginal forces, which want to base Crotiandom on neo-fascist ideology. President Stipe Mesic was even more specific: he demanded that the monument be destroyed. The Civic Council for Human Rights (GOLJP) was outraged and concluded that such an action is equivalent to the building of monuments to the worst fascist criminals, such as Himmler or Heydrich.

Dragutin Hazler, the president of the branch responsible for the scandal, a self-described "anti-fascist and anti-communist, and a Croat persecuted and maltreated throughout his life", forcefully defended his views in the office of the Slunj branch of the Croatian Domobran [Domobrans were the standing army of NDH, while Ustashe were elite units, similar to the SS in Nazi Gemrmany], where he received Nacional's journalists. He had spent most of his life in Switzerland, in the circle of political emigrants. The foundations of his political worldview go back to his youth, when at the age of twelve he lost his three years older brother who was mobilized by force by Partisans and according to Hanzler, butchered alive by Chetniks on March 21, 1942.

At the age of twelve, Hanzler revealed, he joined a Croat unit, but that angered his mother, who demanded that he immediately return home. He did that and later escaped to Switzerland.

He presented to Nacional's journalists his unusual view of history, leaving at times impression of engaging in a monologue with the past, without much interest for the present. At times when we interrupted his presentation, he would either become defensive, "I meant that in a general sense", or would begin to contradict himself.

Explaining the reasons for building a monument to Francetic, he said:

"We did not ask anyone whether we are allowed to build, actually reconstruct the monument. We, Domobrans, did that based on our own conscience, to commemorate a deserving warrior. In Germany there are thousands of monuments with names of soldiers, officers and cities in which they fought as occupiers. Allied units saw that monuments were being built to the dead, but they did not touch them. Dead people are powerless, they cannot harm anyone. A state that fears the dead is to be pitied.

"Croatian volunteers absolutely condemn every fascism, but no one committed so many crimes against us as Serb-Chetnik criminals both in WWII and the Homeland War. Our defenders in the Homeland War felt that Jure Francetic fought against the same criminals. That is why during the war they sang the song 'Here's dawn, here's day, here come Jure and Boban'".

Hanzler is aware that a permit from the municipal authorities is necessary for the building of a monument, but he did not request one, "since this was merely a reconstruction". He does not see why anyone should be bothered by the monument, since it does not harm the environment, nor is against the zoning plan. The monument was built at the place where it used to stand. That is, as Hanzler described it, "just like changing one dress with another one". Besides, he decided not to request a permit because the bureaucracy would have taken two years to respond to his request.

Example of Tragedy

Hazler is very surprised that anyone raises the issue "of dead Jure Francetic, as this monument also commemorates Croat soldiers in this region.

"Two mothers whose sons were massacred in the Homeland War live near the monument. That monument does not only commemorate Jure Francetic, but also an example of a tragedy coming to the Croat people from Serb Chetniks. We did not want to provoke anyone. Why should not we have the right to state that Croats have been victims throughout history and have been blamed for everything they did?"

As far as his outbursts of hatred and statement that he would not allow that worst Croat enemies multiply and produce litters in this region, Hazler explains:

"If Serbs believe that that applies to them, then that's their problem, as they have revealed that they are Croat enemies. I did not name the enemies. I did not say who produces litters here: wolves, foxes, animals, Serbs or Tatars. If someone recognized himself in that, thank God, he let us know that he is our enemy."

To the question to whom he was referring in his statement, if he was misunderstood, he replied:

"No one specifically, that was a general statement." Then he continued his presentation about Jure Francetic, whom he went to see as a young boy, while the Partisans were treating him in a hospital.

"Historical literature mistakenly states that Jure Francetic was held in the Parish Home, but I remember that he was held in Mate Mikan's house, next to the Parish Hall." Hanzler says that he saw when "the truck with dead Jure Francetic, wrapped in a bed sheet and alive and tied up Mijo Abcic, on December 28, around 11am left for an unknown destination."

Hanzler claims that Jure Francetic was a tolerant man and backs that up with his claim that Francetic adopted a Serb from Vares, named Sveto Gorincic. Even if it turned out that Francetic was responsible for war crimes, Hazler would "regardless build a monument to his military component in Bosnia". According to Hazler, a heart surgeon does not care whether his patient has a wart or not.

Hanzler does not intend to destroy the monument in any case. Just as he would not build a monument to the late Yugoslav president Josip Broz Tito for any of his "segments", since he reconstituted Yugoslavia as a dungeon for the Croat people. If he is prosecuted for his action, Hazler would be very proud of that.

The Municipal State attorney in Karlovac, Zeljko Car, explained in a brief conversation that after the break up of the former Yugoslavia all laws that would sanction such actions and statements have been abolished. In this lawless interregnum, Dragutin Hazler built a monument to his ideological leader, Jure Francetic, denying what history has recorded about him: that he was an Ustashe murderer.


Translated on October 16, 2000
NACIONAL
122 posted on 02/12/2002 7:36:42 AM PST by vooch
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To: Tropoljac
This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.geocities.com/~orion47/CROATIA/croatustase.html.
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Croatia- Ustase

USTASE



BOBAN, Rafael (Vitez)
(December 22, 1907 in Bobanova Draga - ?)
Ustase Colonel and Domobran General
Post-war fate is uncertain, though he is known to have eluded capture at Bleiburg. According to one source, he was killed in 1947 as an anti-Communist guerilla in Croatia, according to another he made his way post-war to the USA where he joined the US Army and fought in Korea.
Promotions:
Ustase Colonel: 1944; Domobran General in early 1945;
Assignments:
Replaced Jure Francetic as the commander of the elite Ustasa Black Legion (Crna Legija); Commander of the 5th Ustasa Brigade; Commander of the IVth Ustasa Corps of the HOS near the end of the war




FRANCETIC, Jure (Vitez)
(July 3, 1912 in Prozor - December 27, 1942 in Slunj)
Krilnik (post-humous) of the Ustaska Vojnica
Killed in action after his airplane was sabotaged and was forced to land in Communist Partisan controlled territory.
Promotions:
Ustase Colonel: July 1942 after success of Black Legion in Eastern Bosnia;
Assignments:
1st Commander of Ustasa Black Legion (Crna Legija); post-humous promotion to Ustase Krilnik and given title of "Vitez" (Knight)
Note:
Accompanied Ante Pavelic on his visit to Adolf Hitler in September, 1942, as well as to the Croatian Legionnaires on the Eastern Front.




KAVRAN, Bozidar
(September 22, 1913 in Zagreb - ?, 1948 in Zagreb [executed])
Ustasa political leader
Executed post-war after being captured by Yugoslav secret police (UDBA) while leading a group of Ustasa guerillas.
Promotions:
Official commander of the Ustasa-HOP party from May 1943;
Assignments:
Ustasa Stozernik for the city of Zagreb, commander of the Ustasa-HOP party
Note:
Name rehabilitated in May of 1995, and is today not considered a war criminal.




KIRIN, Ivan "Ico"
(June 4, 1911 in Zdencina - January 24, 1947 in Zagreb [executed])
Ustase Colonel
Executed post-war by the Yugoslav Communist government.
Promotions:
Ustase Colonel: August 1944;
Assignments:
Counter-intelligence department at UNS; Commander of the Poglavnik's personal security detachment within the Poglavnik Bodyguard; personal bodyguard to Ante Pavelic during his escape from Croatia in May 1945.




LUBURIC, Vjekoslav "Maks"
(March 6, 1914 in Humac - April 20, 1969 in Caragente, Spain)
Ustase Colonel, Domobran General
Assasinated post-war by a Yugoslav Communist agent.
Promotions:
Ustase Colonel: October 1944; Domobran General: April 1945;
Assignments:
Commander's deputy at GUS; Commander of UNS Department III (Ustasa Defence - Concentration Camps); Commander of Ustase Defence Brigade; named Commander of all HOS forces as of May 6, 1945.
Note:
Considered to be responsible for the liquidation of the anti-Pavelic coup leaders Vokic and Lorkovic.




MATKOVIC, Ivica
(May 23, 1913 in Zlarin - May ?, 1945 in ?, Slovenia)
Ustasa Defence officer
Murdered by Communist Partisans near Celje, Slovenia, after being repatriated by the British Army post-war.
Promotions:
Promoted to Deputy Commander of the Ustasa Defence: January 1942;
Assignments:
Jasenovac Concentration Camp sub-commander; Deputy Commander of the Ustasa Defense.
Note:
Considered to be responsible for the liquidation of Milivoj Karamarko, one of the key players in the Vokic-Lorkovic coup.




MILOS, Ljubo
(February 25, 1919 in Bosanski Samac - ?)
Ustase Major
Captured on Yugoslav territory post-war (July 20, 1947) while attempting to organize an anti-Communist Croatian guerilla force (Krizari - Crusaders). The date and place of his execution is unknown.
Promotions:
Ustase Major: October 1944;
Assignments:
Deputy Commander of Jasenovac Concentration Camp; Commander of Lepoglava Concentration Camp.
Note:
One of Maks Luburic's most faithful allies.




MOSKOV, Ante (Vitez)
(July 7, 1911 in Spiljari - ?)
Ustase Colonel, Domobran General
Died in Communist captivity post-war, date and location of death uncertain.
Promotions:
Ustase Colonel: Summer 1942; Domobran General: January 1945;
Assignments:
Commander of the Poglavnik Bodyguard (Battalion, Brigade and Division); Commander of the 1st Croatian "Storm" Division; Commander of the Poglavnik Bodyguard Corps.
Note:
One of the infamous "Rasovi" - Ustase extremists.




RUKAVINA, Juraj "Juco"
(February 4, 1898 in Perusic - June 7, 1945 in Zagreb [executed])
Colonel of the Ustaska Vojnica:
Executed by Communists post-war.
Promotions:
Ustase Colonel: November 1941 (unconfirmed);
Assignments:
Croatian State Counsellor: 1943-1945.
Head of Ustaska Nadzorna Sluzba (UNS/Ustase Security Service): 1941-1945.
Responsible for organization of Jadovno concentration camp near Gospic:
Prewar member of Ustase movement.




SERTIC, Tomislav (Vitez)
(December 21, 1902 in Udbina - September ?, 1945 in Belgrade [executed])
Ustase Colonel, Domobran General
Executed post-war by the Communist government, exact date unconfirmed.
Promotions:
Ustase Colonel: June 1941; Domobran General in February 1944;
Assignments:
Commander of Ustaska Vojnica; Commander of the Ustasa Military Academy; Chief of Staff at the MINORS HQ.
Note:
Suspected of participating in the anti-Pavelic coup organized by Vokic and Lorkovic, but never arrested.




SERVATZY, Vjekoslav
(March 29, 1889 in Ruma - June 17, 1945 in Zagreb [executed])
Ustase Colonel, Domobran General
Executed post-war by the Communist government.
Promotions:
Ustase Colonel: June 1941; Domobran General in April, 1945;
Assignments:
Commander of Croatian forces in the Lika operational district, commanded the Poglavnik Bodyguard for a short period, Military Commander of the City of Zagreb near the end of the war.




VRANCIC, Vjekoslav (Vitez)
(March 25, 1904 in Ljubuski - September 25, 1990 in Buenos Aires, Argentina)
Ustase Major, NDH Minister
Died in exile.
Promotions:
Ustasa Major of the Poglavnik Bodyguard in 1943;
Assignments:
Assistant Minister of Foreign Affairs, Minister of Labour.
Note:
Together with A. Vrkljan led the NDH delegation that met with the British 8th Army in an attempt to save the NDH in early May, 1945. Escaped British custody and managed to find safety in Argentina. Active in the Croatian independence movement post-war.




VRBAN, Antun
(January 15, 1908 in Pejakusa - August 31, 1948 in Zagreb [executed])
Ustase Major
Captured on Yugoslav territory post-war (July 20, 1947) while attempting to organize an anti-Communist Croatian guerilla force (Krizari - Crusaders), and executed.
Promotions:
Ustasa Major in June, 1941;
Assignments:
Commander of the Pag Concentration Camp; Commander of the Men's Section of Jasenovac Concentration Camp; Assistant Commander of the Stara Gradiska Concentration Camp; officer in the 1st Ustasa Defense Brigade.
Note:
One of the most infamous Ustase.




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123 posted on 02/12/2002 7:38:19 AM PST by vooch
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To: Bluester
Mali Herzogovac

Your Hero Francetic is such a grand individual that he even got to go with the Poglavnik to Berlin and meet the beloved Adolf.

Francetic and his ilk are a embarassment to decent Croats everywhere. You support of Francetic is yet more evidence that far too many Croats harbour neo-fascist leanings.

124 posted on 02/12/2002 7:43:09 AM PST by vooch
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To: vooch
Em, that was for Tropoljac I presume. Francetic is certainly no hero of mine :)
125 posted on 02/12/2002 8:12:29 AM PST by bluester
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To: Tropoljac
Geez, what close-mindedness.

Croat=Wannabe Kraut. Germany defecates and you Hrvats greedily lap it up like good little minions. Don't you know the Teutons are laughing behind your back and using you to the hilt? Danke Deutschland, ne?

126 posted on 02/12/2002 10:34:37 AM PST by MK
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To: Ichabod Walrus, Tropoljac, Vojvodina, Vooch
I understand that Croats destroyed the Jasenovac Monument, the local museum as well as the various artifacts contained within.

It was Tito and his communists who ordered all of that destroyed, so that evidence of the slaughters wouldn't be found. He was afraid that if the Serbs found out the true magnitude of the crimes, they would take revenge on the Croats, and his dream of a multi-ethnic Yugoslavia would be dead.

127 posted on 02/12/2002 2:54:01 PM PST by Ungrateful
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To: Ungrateful
Which wouldn't have been all that bad. The single greatest mistake of the Serbs in the 1000 year-long history of their state is that they accepted to be part of this thing called Yugoslavia.
128 posted on 02/12/2002 5:00:54 PM PST by Vojvodina
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To: bluester
indeed, it is one thing to support such "contravrsial" figures as Stepinac or Mihalovic...around which there appears to be some serious debate

it is quite another thing to support such figures as Francetic of the Black Legion of which there is little debate as his activities. It is as if someone would start going on about Himmler's good side.

129 posted on 02/12/2002 6:51:45 PM PST by vooch
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Comment #130 Removed by Moderator

Comment #131 Removed by Moderator

Comment #132 Removed by Moderator

To: Tropoljac
Trop

You are defending Francetic in the exact same way neo-Nazi's defend Himmler et. al. by saying they weren't all that bad.

Please look to the German example, for I feel it is instructive for us. The Germans found some legitimate honorable Wehrmacht soldiers (ie Rommel) who they can point to as decent types. But the Germas roundly condemn those Germans who besmirched Germany's repution (ie Himmler).

Following this model is really the only way for Croats to escape any taint of the excesses of the NDH.

133 posted on 02/13/2002 5:06:05 AM PST by vooch
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Comment #134 Removed by Moderator

To: Vojvodina
Anyway, there is no way you can present the KKK as being as much of a threat as Croatia's neo-Ustashe. As for their common ideology, I agree - they're absolutely the same.

The KKK are rank amateurs compared to the Ustashe. Same mentality, only the shokats have the Vatican and Germany propping them up.

135 posted on 02/14/2002 10:39:02 AM PST by MK
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Comment #136 Removed by Moderator

To: joan
There is no evidence that either Malcolm or the newspaper were referring to 1989. And in fact Malcolm was certainly not; he was referring to 1987. He actually personally attended the 1989 speech btw.
137 posted on 02/17/2002 11:14:12 AM PST by Torie
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