Posted on 02/02/2002 5:55:06 AM PST by LarryLied
Ok, it's one of those really weird things that can make your head hurt if you think about it too much, but let's see how I can put it.
Do we know what God is or is not going to do? Generally, no. So we aren't praying that God changes His mind about what He's going to do; that's where the whole 'not my will but Thine' thing comes in.
Second, since we don't know the future, how do we know that God isn't going to do what we ask him to do, because He has predestined - or foreknown if you aren't comfortable with Calvinist ideas - us to pray for Him to do what he's going to do? It's a bit circular to our minds, because we're, well, only human.
Anyway, I think I make less sense on this thread than on the Tolkien one so I'll let someone who knows what s/he is talking about carry on from here!
No, but it is what compels men who operate religious organizations to seek followers; and thus to craft their theology in a way they think will attract the most followers.
If God is universal and omniscient, it is far beyond even the most studious scholars to completely know Him. So the scholars propose questions, and vote on them; and we are then left to follow their vote -- or not.
Disregard that discrepancy and you have this problem. If God is all knowing, we genuinely do not have free will and we should not be punished for sin. All knowing God and we genuinely have no choice. It is pre-ordained.
If God knew 10 billion years ago, that Adam and Eve would eat from the apple right after he created them, then he to told them not to do so, but knew eactly when they would do it, then decides to punish them for creating them to do what he knew they would do, that would be a pretty raw deal.
It would be like creating a computer program that has code in it that says no matter what, after being turned on for 50 seconds make the computer screen blink no matter what, and disregard any other code that tells you not to do so. Then you finish the program, then say do not blink. 50 seconds later it blinks, and you get furious with the software and delete it off your system.
Why would God be upset at humanity ansd create Noah's flood? Angry? God knows for eternity that once he creates man he will become wicked, and then he punishes his own doing?
I do believe in God and free will, so I believe God doesn't know the future. It can be no other way for me. I believe God knows the presence and past in total, but for him to know our future dooms us, because God would also have no choices whatsoever. God knew 1 million years ago if he would answer your prayer for your friend with cancer if he is all knowing. He knew if you would pray or not to begin with.
In a sense, an all powerful God is powerless. It's a mighty paradox. If you knew that you were going to eat a Tuna Sandwich on January 23, 2043 no matter what, because you know all, how could you be all powerful then?
You can't see all, and be all powerful, yet you can't be all powerful and not see all. My head is spinning.
Some may. But that is true in all human endeavors. Most do not.
To the others on this thread I often wonder if God likes suprizes. Man loves them and my grand children love them. I figure that since we are created in God's image, God too can be suprized. Can God know what has not happened. From the deterministic point of view God knew that I would write this, did He then cause it. Those who teach and preach pure determinism cannot live it out.
Respectively learning and trying to keep an open mind. Worldviewer Tom
I'm not very experienced at html but here's a try to post a link:Openess of God web site
http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/godplan.htm
We cannot make the mistake of thinking God is bound by time, since He is the creator of Time and therefore is independant thereof. That is the reason why Scriptures like II Peter could say a day with God is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day.
The best example we as humans bound by time can conceive of is of a novelist writing about a character, since our ability to create is not in the same league as that of Diety. The character is bound by the timeframe of the novel, while the author is independant of it all. The character may open a door, and what happens next is bound by the chronology of the novelistic universe. But in the intervening time before writing the next sentence, the author may have gotten up to use the restroom, get a drink of water, make a phone call, or make a sandwhich. The author has all the time he wants in his disposal to contemplate the character in his novel.
This is sorta like what time must be like for the God. He is above time - thus he can foresee what I will do 25 years from now like it is today, and yet have time to contemplate my prayer now. He has all of eternity to contemplate the prayer of a terrified pilot in a crashing plane -- and still have ample time.
This almost defies logic, but that is to be expected, since we are creatures bound by time. If this were simple, we could think men were making it up.
If it's unspecific, it's doesn't prove anything. If it's specific, it doesn't prove anything. Head I win, tails you lose.
I see. I suppose that would be one way of looking at it. For one who really doesn't understand the scope of what he/she is suggesting, I mean.
Right. And given God's power, his prophesies don't require him to know human behavior in advance. Had Judas not decided to betray Christ, God could either have tempted Judas some more until he gave in or, failing that, tempted one of the other Twelve.
BTW, one notion that was vaguely alluded to in the musical Children of Eden is that there is an inherent human need to do something that "matters" (the "Spark of Creation"). In Eden, the only thing Adam or Eve could do that would possibly matter was to eat the fruit. In a sense, the "Fall of Man" was an inevitable result of a human nature which was incompatible with Eden.
Continuing that thought, it seems that in many cases liberals seek to recreate Eden on earth. They completely fail to realize that if even God couldn't make Eden work their version isn't apt to be any better.
A flaw which began with those who founded our country. Jefferson, John and John Quncy Adams, among others were Unitarians. They saw reason and works as the road to salvation. And, with the best of intentions, they did do good works. But gradually the church, which was very powerful at the time, shifted the emphasis from the works of the individual to the works of the state. Harvard led this charge into statism and tryanny.
What was a Christian church at the time of Jefferson and Channing now makes no pretense that it is not.
But the notion of people doing good works is anti-Eden, if such works are believed to matter (and if they don't matter, why are they described as "good" works?).
Exactly. If God knew the future, he would not have been surprised at the wickedness of man, nor would he have grieved. He simply what have shrugged and said: "Of course. Iknew that before it even happened."
Look, there might be pearls of wisdom in the Bible, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. But by and large the Bible is a collection of the rantings of ancient goat herders. It should be read in that light.
Well a few things... first off I'm afraid to burst your misinformed bubble, but it needs done. The Jehovah God of Judiasm and Christianity does not just descriminatory only against homosexuals. Oh no... He is Holy and just and eternal and he hates everything that he deems sinful. That includes men and women that have sex outside of marriage. He hates lies. He hates murder. He hates 'other gods' (be it the love of money or the practice of wicca).
This same creator has also defined what is right and wrong and anyone who strays off the path is one that cannot be in His presence. That includes you... it includes me... it's included pretty much anyone who has lived on this planet.
In that book which you say has only been right on occassions (e.g. twice a day), it claims that all have sinned all fall short of the glory of God. There is none rightoues ... not even one. Our throats are like open graves. The human heart is full of all sort of wickedness and deceit.... who can know it?
I don't know about you... but as for me, it's not very hard for me to conceive that there is an almighty who is holy and just and eternal.... and it doesn't take much for me to recognize that I'm a sinner... and the daily news reminds me of the wickedness of man.
Unfortunately, I kinda doubt that folks have properly explained the Bible to you. The whole issue about the holiness of God and the fact that we cannot live up to his laws is a very basic tennet... but that is only half the story. God saw our sin problem... and that we couldn't live 'good enough'.... so instead he let mankind know from the very beginning that the 'wages of sin is death'... in other words "the only proper covering for sin is blood'.
So there were centuries when mankind was living under the 'Law' and depending on God's sacrificial system to make things right between God and man. And at the right time.... when there were roads built by the Romans that spanned most of the known world... and when there was a fairly common language (Greek) and also a time of peace (Roman occupation of the holy land), God then sent a 'special man' to come into the world to be the sacrifice once and for all... and for all men.
That man was Jesus of Nazareth (a descendent of David... and by the way... since the destruction of Jerusalen in 70AD, you now stand no chance of ever nailing down the bloodlines again).
Anyhow this man was without sin... he was the only one. He healed folks of every illness and disease and drove out demons (who... yes are quite real... just visit Africa or the carribean).
Anyhow, this Jesus in just a 3 year period changed the whole course of human history. He picked the lowly of this earth and formed a team who would then share revelations about God to the world.
No Christian can talk about how great or sinless we are. Just the opposite... we are (or at least should be) very very aware of our sins and it is only by God's grace and the gift of His own son (as a sacrificial lamb) that enables us to be forgiven.
I regret no one has ever told you about how much God loves us and believe it or not... this God of Old Testament times has made forgiveness available for EVERYONE.
He may have used a chosen people to reveal himself to mankind and to let His son be born into the world, but don't think for a minute that he doesn't love every human being immensely.
If we would live as we should and would continually point to the goodness and grace of God and the perfection of his son Jesus, then I'd hope you'd see Christianity as the ultimate in 'tolerance' of people. Not tolerance of behaviour... sin is wrong and God hates it and so should we. Be we are all under the curse of God unless we accept His forgiveness.
Talk about a level playing field. Christians are the ones who want to be the great levellers and root for the little guys. We are all equal in God's economy (at least prior to accepting him and being given a new heart ... new birth).
So for what it's worth.... yes, this God year hear about does discriminate... but He is not one who does so based on race (ridiculous as he made us all). No... it is sin that He hates. He wants folks with hearts that love and obey Him. It's that simple.
If you want to equate that with Jehovah being one that hates mankind ... then that would be a tragedy... as He is the maker and lover of mankind. Who else loves humans so much that they would send their only child to be slaughtered in place of another? I wouldn't. God hates sin... oh yeah. But he loves humans... and he's solved the sin problem.... thanks be to God.
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