Does even God know the future?

Providence Journal/AP ^ | 2/02/02 | RICHARD N. OSTLING

[LarryLied]

It wasn't the usual news headline: "Scholars Vote: God Knows Future."

Thus did Christianity Today magazine summarize an Evangelical Theological Society convention that climaxed a doctrinal dispute which has been brewing for years among evangelical Protestants. At issue is whether God has total knowledge of the future or somewhat limited knowledge.

The movement known as Open Theism or Openness Theology is attacking, among other things, the classical belief in God's "omniscience" (all-knowing nature) and complete "foreknowledge" of the future. It cites the Bible to underscore God's vulnerability, limitations and responsiveness to human events and claims that traditional belief stems from ancient Greek philosophy more than from Scripture.

It's intriguing that nowadays such Protestant challenges to orthodoxy come with more vigor and originality from Bible-based evangelicals than from old-fashioned liberals.

The evangelical meeting chastised Open Theism with this resolution:

"We believe the Bible clearly teaches that God has complete, accurate and infallible knowledge of all events past, present and future, including all future decisions and actions of free moral agents."

The vote on that was 253 "yes" and 66 "no," with 41 abstentions, but the magazine said most of the "no" voters and abstainers didn't disagree with the substance but disliked targeting colleagues.

However difficult, this is no dry doctrinal debate. It affects how we understand prayer, providence, why evil things happen in this life and the nature of individuals' moral freedom. Those seeking to explore the fight should note four new books:

• Most Moved Mover: A Theology of God's Openness (Baker) by Clark Pinnock of Canada's McMaster Divinity College in Hamilton, Ontario, the latest Open Theism manifesto.

• No Other God (Presbyterian & Reformed) by John Frame of Reformed Theological Seminary, who is anti-openness.

• God's Lesser Glory (Crossway) by another anti-openness thinker, Bruce Ware of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

• Divine Foreknowledge: Four Views (InterVarsity Press), edited by James K. Beilby and Paul Rhodes. This anthology features open theist Gregory Boyd of Bethel College and three critics: William Lane Craig of Talbot School of Theology; Paul Helm of Regent College, Vancouver; and David Hunt of Whittier College.

The latter book is the best place to start. A quick glance:

Boyd and other openness thinkers say God can't know the future perfectly and that he changes his mind in response to human events; they cite Bible passages that speak in those terms. Confusingly, Boyd insists he believes that God is "omniscient" after all.

Jeremiah 18:1-11, an example cited by Boyd and friends, has God telling the prophet to observe a potter fashioning clay and says that if Israel turns from its wicked ways, "I will repent of the evil that I intended to do."

Helm says that while openness thinkers stress Bible passages about God's dialogues with humanity, their opponents cite other passages that teach "all things" aspects of God such as omniscience and that stress his awareness of the future and his unchanging nature.

"Neither side is going to convince the other by swapping texts," Helm concludes. He believes that sinners need promises from God they can utterly rely on. Open theology, he asserts, is too shallow concerning biblical truth about sinful humans' need for redemption and God's power to provide it.

[jlogajan]

Karl Marx did see man as an purely economic animal but he was wrong. Money is not what compels man to seek God.

First of all, money is not the sum of economics -- economics is the study of human behavior in exchanges of value -- some value is material, some value is not. Karl Marx's views on this are particularly irrelevent because he was a failed economist in any event. But nice try of guilt by association -- ya done religion proud.

[jlogajan]

I don't understand praying for God to do whatever he was going to do anyway.

Ditto.

[jlogajan]

Whether you like it or not, the Bible is full of prophecies (hundreds) and many of which have come true.

Well, whether you like it or not, the Bible if full of really sick and bizarre things like that we should put homosexuals to death, or that we shouldn't wear clothes of mixed fabrics.

Look, there might be pearls of wisdom in the Bible, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. But by and large the Bible is a collection of the rantings of ancient goat herders. It should be read in that light.

[jlogajan]

So prayer isn't to change outcomes -- therefore prayer is asking God to do what God was going to do anyhow. Well, that makes a lot of sense. Not!

[Bobby777]

it's good to affirm the will of God ... however the Scripture plainly teaches that requests and petitions be made and God will grant them (or not) according to His will ... it's impossible to change the nature of God, however it is possible for God to change one's circumstances ... and yes, to the thread, God does know the future.

[jlogajan]

the Scripture plainly teaches that requests and petitions be made and God will grant them (or not) according to His will

However, there is no statistical study that shows that prayer actually effects outcomes. So this "power" of prayer is indistinquishable from random outcomes -- as if God didn't exist at all. Hmmm.

[HairOfTheDog]

Please don't confuse my question with hostility. I am not trying to argue or be rude. I thought my polite question deserved a little more than a one word answer, but thanks for the little time you gave me. I gathered you are a believer, and you are the first one I have ever seen say that there is no point in praying for something to happen. I thought most believed in the power of prayer, and I was curious to see if you would expand on your philosophy.

[Bobby777]

I've heard conflicting reports on that ... pro and con ... however, God isn't concerned about statistics ... He can and does give guidance ... in fact, the Scripture declares, in some cases, that persistent prayer is rewarded (obviously not ALL requests are because not all are profitable) ...

I have prayed that God will bring something unique to you in the next week or so ... I think if you really want to know if prayer is true, then you should pray the same ... He does not put on a "show" but will bring people into your life (most often this is the case) who will speak to you ...

I know this is true because I have seen it dozens of times over the past 15 years or so ... quite stunning when it occurs really ... some will dismiss it as "coincidence" but it's often a unique experience ...

[HairOfTheDog]

I do not agree with being hostile to those who believe differently than me. You are badgering people which seldom make your points look more attractive than theirs.

[Guenevere]

Does God know the future?

YOU CAN COUNT ON IT!

[HairOfTheDog]

Thank you. Is "God's will" changeable then? - If God knows the future already, then is there not really free will, only destiny?

[jlogajan]

You are badgering people

Sorry, the witness is excused from making sense on account of badgering.

[neutrino]

Also, to help clarify the concept of existing outside of space and time, one might try reading Edwin Abbot's 'Flatland'.

Excellent point and idea, 17th! I agree with you and boris!

[HairOfTheDog]

Well, I was polite and you were rude, and neither of us ended up deserving a good answer, so I guess I can't argue that my way was better can I? As you were soldier!

[Bobby777]

God's overall will and purpose is unchangeable ... but the Scripture plainly teaches that He intervenes, often at the request of His Saints and at othertimes because of His Omniscient Benevolence ...

He rorated the Earth backwards to allow one man to relive a day to prevent a terrible event (boy, don't we ALL wish He would do that for each of us? ... I can think of several days, LOL) ...

the best thing to do is to study and to pray ... Christ Himself prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane (among other places) and He Is the Son of God ... that's a pretty good example right there ... He also gave a "model" (not a vain repetition to be repeated mindlessy but a "model" of how one should pray) in Scripture ...

here are a couple of the verses from the Gospel ...

http://www.SufferingMessiah.Com/LordPray.htm

[College Repub]

bookmark ping...GRRR why is it that theres not a bookmark link on some of the threads...GRRRRR