A Sage for the Age

Jewsweek ^ | January 31, 2002 | Bernard Lewis

[Romulus]

ping

[Romulus]

FYI

[KC Burke]

Good read.

[Romulus]

Have a look.

[bvw]

The old man says "Do they [the palestinians/the arabs] have an astonishing instinct that pushes them to the verge of destruction? Indeed not."

That he says it in the question is his real answer. The "Indeed not", is politics. There is an "astonishing instinct", understood in the poetry of Poe, the goth style of some modern young American's, claimed among Formula One drivers, and distilled to cultural essence there in those Arabs who love "self-martyrdom" -- suicide. How wise can the old man be if he continues to ignore it, or rather how attached is he to his intellectual vanities?

[Zviadist]

Thanks. Very interesting insights.

[Romulus]

Are you saying this "self-martyrdom" is traditional in Islamic culture? I was under the impression that it was something new.

[bvw]

Have to watch my words here so that a fine distinction may be made. As I best understand it, Mohammed started up his religion and many people joined to it as a fight against an extreme level of vice derived from self-indulgence -- booze, women, sex, gambling -- then found in Arabia.

Rather than self-indulgence the Koran promoted self-denial, so as to eliminate or reduce the evil ways aforetime popular.

Self-indulgence and self-denial are however -- in some way -- two sides of the same coin, minted of the self.

The Arabs seem to have an acute weakness in that area -- just speaking to the history then, and the modern history.

I think that weakness for extremes of self-indulgence and indulgent self-denial became to be exploited by a historical stream of people bearing a love for death -- assasination, martyrdom, etc. And that those life-rejecting ideas caught a foothold in Mohammed's teachings.

[Romulus]

I've read that jihad is a bedrock principle of Islam, and that sometimes it's interpreted spiritually, other times as a fanatical call-to-arms. But all these varieties of religious militancy (a symbolism that Christianity sometimes employs, lest we forget) seem distinct from the cult of explicit self-martyrdom. Maybe some knowledgable person will have something to say about this.

[BenF]

Thank you for the ping. I found it to be an interesting article.

[Romulus]

So far not much controversy here, but Lewis's opinions are certainly thought-provoking, especially WRT the matter of magnanimity in victory.

[weikel]

Stupid liberal Pali supporter.

[weikel]

Tear the supporters of this liberal a new one.

[weikel]

Meaning Lewis not you.

[bvw]

In the Bible, Samson was nazir -- that is a person who lives a sort-of "holier" than normal life. A nazir swears off alcohol, doen't cut his hair, etc. But a nazir, is required to make a sin-offering, that is -- even the partial denial of some of life's allowed pleasures is a sin -- a missed opportunity. The inablility to enjoy wine moderately is a failing -- whether by abstinence or by drunkeness.

Life is lived for the refinement of the soul, but by fully living one's life one can more fully refine one's soul.

So yes, groups that teach extreme complete avoidance of some things like alcohol, sex (the Shakers), etc. rather than teaching ways to acheive moderate or appropriate use -- those groups will have problems.

[weikel]

Buddha( yeah I know im going to hell for mentioning his name don't flame me on this) had the correct view on indulgence vs denial both are bad if you don't balance them out.