Posted on 01/20/2002 8:45:33 AM PST by Demidog
At the National Press Club, Washington DC , 11 December 2001
With G-D’s help May the Creator grant that my words find favor in His eyes.
Each day’s news brings with it horrible tales of suffering from the Holy Land . The death toll on both sides mounts steadily. Indeed, so overwhelming is the seemingly never-ending stream of death and mayhem that it requires an exceptionally bloody day to merit significant media consideration. We have all grown accustomed to the fact that the Israeli state and its Palestinian opponents are locked in mortal combat. So it has been, so it is and so, it seems, it always will be.
Indeed, this pessimistic prognosis seems rooted in a century of precedent. The first Jewish settlers who came to Palestine with the intention of establishing a sovereign Jewish state there arrived towards the end of the nineteenth century. Palestinian nationalism – then generally subsumed under the title Arab nationalism but soon to assume its more particularistic title – began to flourish at about the same time.
The clash of these movements was played out through various wars, atrocities, revolutions and dispossessions throughout the twentieth century. Various strains of ideology in these rival nationalisms have attempted to bring the matter to closure, either by force of arms or, at times, by recourse to the negotiating table.
All these efforts, be they military or compromise oriented, have one fact in common. Their result is always the same. They have failed – failed utterly and totally. We may delude ourselves by yet dreaming, as many do, that there is one final war or one last peace plan which can calm all those concerned. Unfortunately there is no indication that such is the case.
We of Neturei Karta International find the toll of dead and wounded on both sides to be intolerable. We feel that it is high time for a radical departure from the assumptions that have governed and, effectively stifled free debate on the subject.
Our perspective is far from new. It is the centuries old view of the Torah. It was once universally shared by all Jews and it is only our people’s recent flirtation with assorted secularist dogmas that have caused it to be forgotten of late in some quarters.
Simply stated – The essence of Judaism is our faith -- our belief that G-d spoke to Moses and the assembled multitudes at Sinai and there gave His Revelation to the world. This was, is and always will be, Judaism.
The Jewish exile from the Holy Land , which followed the Roman destruction of the Second Temple close to two thousand years ago, was always viewed by our people as a Divine punishment. The state of exile in which we found ourselves was not seen as the result of military or political weakness. Rather, the Creator had decreed that until such time as He would chose to redeem the world, world Jewry was to remain in exile. The only possible means to alter what was and is a metaphysical state are spiritual. Repentance, prayer, Torah study, deeds of kindness and the like could hasten redemption. Nothing else would be effective. Any other means of ending exile is metaphysically doomed to failure.
Zionism was a movement dedicated to altering this traditional view of redemption. It posited that political maneuvering; revolutionary terror, war and dispossession would yield Jewish salvation.
Nothing could be further from the truths of Judaism.
However, Zionism not only broke with the teachings of our faith, it also entered upon a campaign, now over one hundred years old, to persuade and, eventually, force, when possible, Jews to abandon their allegiance to G-d and the Torah and recreate themselves as secular nationalists.
The Zionist movement was not only a heretical departure from Judaism and a practical attempt to lure Jews from their Torah. It was also monstrously blind to the indigenous inhabitants of the Holy Land . In the 1890s, less than 5% of the Holy Land ’s population was Jewish, yet, Theodore Herzl had the nerve to describe his movement as that of “a people without a land for a land without a people.”
Time and again both Revisionist and Labor Zionists, the former overtly and the latter under the clouds of deceptive rhetoric, have sought the elimination of the Palestinian people from their state. They have dispossessed thousands and refused them the right of return or minimum compensation. They have kept the people of Gaza and the West Bank stripped of basic political and human rights and denied them the dignity of self-determination.
This aggression has plunged the region into its never-ending spiral of bloodshed.
Sad to say, the bloody results of Zionism were not unexpected. They were foretold in the Talmud. There we read that a human based attempt to return en masse to the Holy Land would result in terrifying loss of life. This is an unpleasant truth but its seems quite validated by the past century’s events.
People of the Press, I have come before you today to offer a new perspective on the Middle East, a new explanation as to why all previous attempts at peace making have failed. It is our belief that they are inherently doomed to fail. All of them share one fatal assumption. They find it axiomatic that the state of Israel should exist. And, in contrast to the plain evidence of the past half-century of Jewish history they see its existence as a positive development for the Jewish people.
Only blind dogma could at this date see Israel as something good for the Jewish people. Established as a so-called safe haven it has consistently over the past five decades been the most dangerous place on the face of the earth for a Jew to live. It has been the source of tens of thousands of Jewish deaths, of families torn apart and has left a trail of grieving widows, orphans and friends in its wake.
Not to mention the countless thousands of Jewish souls diverted from religion. And our Rabbis state “If you cause one to sin, it is worse than killing him”.
And, let us not forget that this tale of physical Jewish suffering is far magnified among the Palestinian people, a nation condemned to poverty, persecution, homelessness, all pervasive hopelessness and all too often, a far too premature, death.
This web of pain, the cries and tears of the grieving, demand of us as Jews that we return to the wellsprings of our faith. We must accept our task to serve G-d in humility and peace. This is the essence of a Jew.
And, when so doing we will inevitably reject the bizarre and malicious doctrines of Zionism, the falsification of Judaism.
We will realize that defying the Divine decree of exile is doomed to bloody failure.
We will realize that our people’s hopes cannot be built by shattering those of another people.
We will demand and with G-d’s, help live to see the peaceful dismantling of the state. We will return the land to those who dwelt upon it for centuries, the Palestinian people. Under their sovereignty, we will work towards a just solution to any Jewish – Palestinian problems created by the brief period of Zionist ascendancy.
There are I’m sure some skeptics here in the audience who feel that a Palestinian state would represent a threat to the Jewish people. My friends, I have been there time and time again as Neturei Karta International has visited Palestinian and Islamic organizations and I have been greeted with extraordinary warmth and brotherly concern. We have visited Iran , been hosts of the government. We were allowed to speak in Iran to both Jewish and non-Jewish audiences, without any prior censorship. We have discovered time after time, that Muslims in general actually yearn for good relations with Jews and, that when the evil face of Zionism is stripped away, the naturally good relations between our peoples bubbles to the surface.
Actully history bears witness that through out the centuries Muslim countries were extremely hospitable to the Jews. In fact as a general rule the Jews faired far better in those countries than in other host lands.
And in Palestine alone our grandparent have testified to the fact that the Muslims and Jews lived in peace and harmony up until the advent of Zionism.
Many stories of the close friendship that existed at that time circulate in the Jewish communities, for instance, baby sitting each others children was a daily occurrence
We also operate a web site. There isn’t a day goes by when we don’t receive e- mails from around the Islamic world. They are all positive. They bless, express love and brotherhood. Often they credit us with having cured them of anti Jewish sentiments. From Yemen to Great Britain the delight these people experience in finding anti Zionist Jews is palpable.
This then is the image we offer as an alternative to the current horror – of a Jewish people free of the need to kill and be killed, free to pursue their Divine task of Torah practice and free to live in peace and respect with all men. May the Creator grant that we all be worthy of seeing that day. And ultimately the day when all will recognize the one G-D and serve Him in harmony. AMEN
I thought that the sole purpose of the Messiah's arrival was to establish a new Israel. On the other hand, I believe that the messiah already came. And furthermore I conceded the point already as you should know if you actually read the exchange. This is what I was talking about when I asked you to be intellectually honest.
It's one thing to disagree on the theological niceties it's another thing to continue arguing along a line you can't even prove yourself. It was his assertion based on his blanket statements concerning the Torah. You couldn't back him up. Alouette posted a detailed rebuttal to his blanket assertion and yet there you were still parroting his view several posts down.
I ask you again though. Given his historical view. Do you consider his position in that respect dishonest or is he just a stupid man?
Right, just like what we are doing to poor Usama.
Tell me demi. DO you think its fair for us to fight those who want to destroy us and then tell Israel that it must learn to get along with those who want to destroy it???
No, not the sole purpose at all. You may be suprised to find that there are some devout Jews (very few) who don't believe that a Messiah will come at all!
There are many diverse opinions about the coming of the Messiah, his purpose, the events that will bring him here, and the things he will do once he arrives. There is some thought that there will be two messiahs, the "Moshiach ben Yosef" who will come first to make the arrangements for the coming of the Moshiach ben David, the Redeemer of the Jews. Some ascribe what are traditionally thought of to be the works of Moshiach ben David to Moshiach ben Yosef. I find it all fascinating.
The ingathering of the exiles is often considered a precurser event to the coming of Messiah. This is the predominant thought, although there is some thought that this will be the role of the Messiah (and could be the role of Moshiach ben Yosef). That is why I am extremely curious to know this rabbi's Halachic sources for beleiving that Zionism stands in the way of Messiah.
He may in fact be one of those Jews who does not believe in Messiah at all. I don't remember seeing any reference to Messiah in his speech.
Who the h*ll is "preventing" you? Some big bad hook-nosed boogyman with a stick? If you want to read it, you can buy the whole thing in English (expensive, to be sure) or selections on Amazon.com. Or go to a university or Christian seminary library. Most of them have it. It's basic research material.
Where did I indicate that it bothers me? I charge that he is a fraud. Notice he did not cite a tractate from the Talmud, no page number, no verse. He expected you to accept his opinion on FAITH knowing that you are ignorant of Torah and Talmud. Just saying so does not make it so. Since he did not give a reference I see nothing to refute. The faith that you refuse to give to me, you adequately give to him. WHY? Could it be that his hatred of Israel (MLK winks here) rises to an acceptable level?
But I did give reasons why not to accept his opinion and that of Neurei Karta in general. If more than 90% of TORAH faithful Jews reject them, I would think that that in itself speaks volumes.
As I mentioned, they would be comparable (G-d forgive me for the comparison) to our Taleban and AL-Qeda. They believe that Jews who do not agree with them are similar to what the radical Muslims call Kafirs. In other words, if the Arabs eradicated Jews who do not agree with them they would not shed tears, but would use those deaths as proof that their opinion is sacred! Perverse.
You accept him because you espoused his opinion before you ever heard of him. You believe that the Jewish presence is an abomination. I think that opinion is abominable.
Those who bless us will be blessed and the rest get Arafat, Assad, Osama, etc.
MR. FLEISCHER: The President strongly condemns the attack that took place in Israel yesterday which took innocent lives. The President condemns, once again, another terrorist attack on our friend Israel. The President believes that Chairman Arafat needs to continue and must demonstrate that he has the desire and the willingness and the ability to dismantle terrorist organizations, and that is a vital precursor in order for peace to be achieved in the Middle East in the President's opinion.
Q Is there any point in continuing peace process talks at this point, at this juncture?
MR. FLEISCHER: Again, the President is committed to achieving peace in the Middle East through whatever means are the most likely to achieve peace in the Middle East. So the President will continue the involvement, but it is a very difficult situation.
From yesterdays White House press conference.
I may not be able to translate the Torah, but the meaning of this position statement by the Bush Administration needs little translation. The enemy of our friend will remain our enemy whether you like it or not. The Islamics are fools to escalate their terrorist activities against Israel during the same time frame that their brothers in Islam destroyed our WTC and killed thousands of our people. Israel will do what it must to insure its security from suicidal Islamic terrorists...the U.S. will do likewise. It is unfortunate that such facts upset you, but the ball is in the Palies court.
Here are some of the things he believes (much of it based on his interpretation of Islamic thought): Israel not only has a right to exist as a nation in the region, but such a right is even described in the Koran; a Jewish homeland is even described in the Koran; "And thereafter We said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd,'" the Koran says in 17:104; there is no such thing as a 'Palestinian';
He has said that what the Palestinians are doing is an Islamic sin, that they are not justified in Islamic law for uprising because the only justification for it such an uprising against the government is when the government does not allow a Muslim to practice his faith.
Of course he speaks truth because he hates Israel; we speak propoganda because we don't. This is drivel not even an argument.
Do you agree with the Rabbi and the NKI that the holocaust was God's punishment on the Jews "for trying to establish the State of Israel"?
Joining Farrakhan at his annual Saviours’ Day convention, Neturei Karta Rabbi David Weiss repeatedly attacked Zionism and Israel, telling the crowd that the Holocaust was punishment on the Jewish people for trying to establish the State of Israel. He also asserted that "All those who say they are Jews who speak ill of Mr. Farrakhan are not Jews."
Also, there is a new version that is only partially translation that is supposed to be even better and truer to the word (if you ever read any translated books, you know that some translations are just better than others).
The only thing preventing someone from reading it is 1) they can't read Aramaic, or 2) they don't want to buy one of the translated versions or find it in a large library. But it's out there and freely available (in translation).
Yes. I know.
The issue about Palestine is about 4,000 years old.
There is no palestine. There was no connection whatever between the name Philistia/Philistines which some people are trying to equate with those who call THEMSELVES palestinians today. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.
Now help me so I can learn. What is in your Kool Aid that prevents you from achieving enlightenment?
Neturei Karta International
Do you agree with the Rabbi and the NKI that the holocaust was God's punishment on the Jews "for trying to establish the State of Israel"?
Joining Farrakhan at his annual Saviours? Day convention, Neturei Karta Rabbi David Weiss repeatedly attacked Zionism and Israel, telling the crowd that the Holocaust was punishment on the Jewish people for trying to establish the State of Israel. He also asserted that "All those who say they are Jews who speak ill of Mr. Farrakhan are not Jews."See NKI's common cause with Farrakhan
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