Posted on 01/17/2002 5:35:50 AM PST by Israel
Recently, as a result of an article I posted, I was asked to comment on a recent event wherein a Hebrew teacher in a Jewish school in Israel burned a copy of the New Testament given to a 6th grade student by a Christian missionary. Clearly, it was wrong to burn the Bible of another's religion. However, to be fair, it was equally wrong to gift such a book to an impressionable Jewish youngster. The book burning will, no doubt, sort itself out but, the matter of Christian missionaries trying to convert Jews to some sect of Christianity remains a problem.
To convert a Jew to another religion plainly states that the all-seeing G-d was wrong in selecting the Jewish people to serve him. Most, if not all, religions agree that G-d is perceived to be clear-minded about the future all the way into what is called the 'End of Times'. Therefore, He knew the Jewish people would ebb and flow in their mission. He allowed the Jewish Prophets to glimpse the future so that they could issue warnings for the people and their Kings to mend their ways and stay steady on the path intended as a "light unto the nations".
Sometimes they succeeded and sometimes they failed but, either way, G-d was not unaware of these lapses yet to be. The successes and failures were both well documented in the Hebrew Bible, the first five books of Moses as given by G-d to Moses on Mt. Sinai. There was no attempt to hide the weaknesses (or the strengths) of Jewish leaders and these failures were held out as a lesson for future generations. Men are not angels although in different ages a handful have reached the level of Tzadikim (righteous ones).
There are other religions whose level of expectations was to minimally accept the seven Noahide laws which have indeed marked the progress of Christianity. One can reach higher and adopt more advanced levels of behavior but, too often religion has been used as an excuse to persecute, torture and even destroy "the other" of different religions. Domination via conquest of others was always viewed as a sign in primitive thought that their god was more powerful and theirs was the only correct god to follow. Regrettably, that belief seems to prevail even today as exemplified by our struggle in Afghanistan and the Middle East. It is ramping up even now between India and Pakistan.
The Jews were not instructed to proselytize or press other religions into accepting the Jewish 10 Commandments plus the additional 603 'Mitzvot' (rules of conduct) which the Jews had accepted to live by. They were merely to be servants to HaShem (lit. "The Name" of G-d) and, in doing so, to be a light (example) unto the nations. Granted, they (we) failed frequently and were duly punished for our inability to stay the course. Jews were also not instructed to tell those of other religions that they too were able to cross the threshold of entering the Covenant given to the Jews IF they adopted the laws of Torah.
However, it was not up to men who chose other pathways to G-d to instruct the Jewish people in the belief that G-d had made a mistake in selecting them for this difficult mission. It is understandable that the evolvers of new religions wished their followers to worship in their own ways. It is NOT understandable for them to presume that G-d was mistaken in putting the burden or privilege of servitude on the Jewish people. Moreover, not having spoken directly with G-d as did Noah, Abraham, Moses, how is it possible to challenge or to correct G-d's pronounced judgement in the Torah from these ancient Prophets?
Within the Roman Catholic Church it is believed that the Pope is infallible. Can the one G-d be less so? Can mankind presume to fathom G-d's Mind, Plans and His Vision through all infinite eternity and conclude that He was in error? The hubris of men, to presume to probe the Mind or Intentions of G-d - who rules billions of galaxies out into infinite space - beyond what He has said to do, is presumptuous.
Is it right and proper for various Christian sects who surely believe in their G-d then to come to Jewish youngsters and, in effect, tell them that their Jewish history, their destiny was NOT pre-ordained but the Christian version is? That G-d has changed his mind because He did not or could not see the future. Can anyone say to the Jewish people that "it is our destiny to replace you because, in our opinion, you have failed your mission and G-d's judgment was misplaced"?
The Jewish people are deeply familiar with book burning. During the Church-inspired Inquisition, Torah parchment scrolls were wrapped around rabbis and those who refused forced conversion to Christianity and then set on fire. The parchment was dampened with water so the Jewish victim being burned at the stake would burn to death more slowly and have the opportunity to repent his stubborn dedication to G-d's Covenant and accept conversion.
We recall Hitler's thugs confiscating Jewish holy books and scrolls, using them to create huge bonfires. Later, they burned knowledgeable Jews in the Krupp ovens - with children often thrown in alive. Neither the Catholic Church nor Islam protested. In fact, the world remained curiously silent. Here the motive was not conversion but disposal of a people who would always remain Jewish.
The surge of radical religions has an unhappy past. The Christian Crusades swept through Europe and the Holy Land, killing everyone in their path always proclaiming this was being done in G-d's Name. Christianity raged at that time - certain they were doing G-d's work. Had they actually received G-d's Word or was this merely the zealous imagination of self-anointed clerics thwarted in their self-appointed mission?
Similarly, the Muslim nations surged back against the Crusaders, imposing Islam on the Holy Land and into Spain and France. They also believed that conversion by the sword was what Allah would applaud. Each in their time of glorious conquest demanded obedience to their gods as did the earlier Romans.
Now, in the present, we see Christians being driven out of most Arab and Muslim-dominated countries. They would be allowed to stay IF they accepted conversion to Islam and the correct pathway to their G-d who the Muslims called Allah. This same formula would, of course, apply to the Jewish nation as it always has down through the centuries.
Pursuing other religions with the intent to convert them by aggression or stealth is a sure fire way to inspire hatred and war. Is it not passing strange that down through the ages first Christianity and later Islam sought to meld the lineage of the Jewish tribe of Abraham through conversion with their growing religions even as they proclaimed the Jew had failed the Covenant G-d gave them? Is it possible to dismiss and demonize a people and yet still claim to be the correct heir to their heritage back to their first conversations with G-d?
A Hebrew teacher in Israel, protecting his students from what he considered undue dangerous influence of missionaries using a New Testament book drafted in the Hebrew Language as a tool of conversion, chose the wrong response. He should have visited the school or offices of that Christian sect and returned the book with a public protest.
I have often thought that it would be right and proper for Jewish students, knowledgeable in Torah law, to gather around those who come to proselytize and provide them with an education of why a Jew follows HaShem's laws of instruction in how to lead his life. They must be reminded that HaShem (G-d) had specifically instructed the Jews that: "There shall be no other G-d before Me." Shall a Jew leave G-d's Covenant and break his obligation to the one G-d who revealed Himself to the Jewish people? Has the lesson been forgotten wherein Eve was seduced to break G-d's instructions, resulting in great punishment for all?
Shall we listen to creative men advocating their religions because they can finesse language and thought so they are entirely convincing to others? Perhaps it would be better if they choose as their opponent the G-d who made the rules. I grant you that may be difficult, since G-d seems to have stopped talking to us humans in voice or even through Prophets.
However, if He spoke to us once, perhaps he will do so again. Until that time, wherein He comes to judge us and issues rulings, I think the effort to convert Jews to other ways should be put aside. Presently, we have the Ten Commandments, included in the 613 Mitzvot, and the ethical/moral judgement of wise men who instruct us to treat each other with respect. That is sufficient for now. We are not, however, unaware of the assistance our Christian friends have given Israel during its difficult times and for this we thank you. We understand your efforts to save us are according to your beliefs.
As for the material actually given to the Jewish youths for the purposes of conversion, simply gather it up and return it to the entrance of the institution from whence it came.
Maimonides preferred Christianity over Islam. He favored the strict monotheism of Islam over the trinitarian belief of Christianity. But Christians accept the Tanakh as divinely inspired and true (even if they differ on matters of interpretation), while Islam believes that the Hebrew scriptures have been corrupted.
The whole of the Hebrew scriptures, in context, on its own terms.
Every one of the 4 major prophesies of the Messiah are also understood by Christians as applying to the 2nd Coming.
This is true. Absent any prophecy in the Tanakh for a second coming of the messiah, however, I cannot accept this belief.
Who was Jesus anyway?
Jesus was a man and a Jew. He was a charismatic preacher. He may have been affiliated with, or at least educated by, one of the branches of Phariseeism, the Hillel school. I base this on his agreement with them regarding the nature of the resurrection, among other things. His blistering attacks on the Pharisees are probably aimed at the Shammaites, who held to a very rigid interpretation of the Law, and who received very similar criticism from the Hillelites, who subsribed to a more lenient interpretation.
I think Judaism has almost a bigger stake in trying to disprove Jesus than Christianity does in trying to prove Him from prophesy.
Why so?
From the Jewish standpoint, it is very straightforward. Either a man fulfills the prophecies within his lifetime, or he doesn't. If he doesn't, he isn't the messiah.
Jesus proved Himself by ressurection...and nearly all His disciples maintained that fact through lives of great hardship, imprisonment, etc. up into torturous deaths... Why would these formerly cowardly guys act this way for a deception?
Unlike you, I don't automatically assume that the Christian scriptures are 'gospel truth'. Paul's writings are the earliest Christian documents we have. It is not at all clear that belief in a physical resurrection was part of Paul's teaching. Mark 16:9-20 does not appear in the earliest manuscripts, and appears to be a later interpolation derived from Matthew. I think that Christian belief about the nature of Jesus evolved over time. IMO.
You must be familiar with C. S. Lewis's formula (restating Augustine I believe) of Liar, Lunatic or Lord
Yes, I am. This is a false di(actually, tri)chotomy. It assumes that we have Jesus's teachings accurately rendered. It also fails to take into consideration that, while he may have believed what he is reported to have said about himself, he may simply have been wrong.
What have you been smoking? Give me a break!!! Since when is the Pauline source of this passage questioned: "and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain." (Paul in I Cor. 15:14) Anyone who has read Paul cannot but help see the physical resurrection of Christ is essential to his message. I can provide you with dozens of passages from Paul's letters where in context, he is clearly referring to Jesus' bodily resurrection.
I already provided you with HUNDREDS of passages in the Old Testament which point to Christ. Admittedly some of these could be out of context or not applicable, but all? What if 90% are merely Christian reading into the text...that makes 30+ passages that aren't. However you have yet to dispute ONE. You said it was the Hebrew scriptures that convinced you Jesus could not be the Messiah, and I asked you for only ONE passage to prove that, yet you offer none. Hundreds of verses I argue show He is Messiah, yet you offer me not one to show He isn't.
You are correct virtually all scholars agree the last chapter of Mark leaves only with the empty tomb--verses after that were likely added... I've studied Mark in detail, and the whole pattern of the book, in the traditional Jewish pattern, is to ask the question (without always answering), "who is this guy?" So, WHERE IS THE BODY??? So all those first followers who got tortured and killed did so for merely a nice Jewish teacher? The integrity of the New Testament is greater than that of any other book from the last 2000 years, there is no evidence it was tampered with, certainly not by inserting major themes like the ressurection or the virgin birth. Your mind is made up, a priori, on the issue of Jesus as Messiah, let the reader decide.
I have no intention of trying to forcibly convince you or anyone on this truth. When you study the Word and do not literaly take things out of context, you come to discernment with much prayer of course for discernment.
Yes, Bible does back this up. Read what " chosen " means from for example, Strong's concordance, study the word "gentile," the word "elect" . Then you pray for discernment and you will see the " whole picture" not just one verse out of context.
If you do not see this as truth, then what can I say. So be it.
Peace.
I said physical resurrection. Read farther in the chapter:
[42] So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.I read 1 Corinthians 15 to mean that Paul believed that the resurrection was real, but that it was a spiritual, not a physical, resurrection.
[43] It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
[44] It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
[45] Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. [46] But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.
[47] The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
[48] As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven.
[49] Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
However you have yet to dispute ONE.
Earlier on this thread, I addressed both Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. You posted a huge block of cites that you pulled from some web site. I feel no obligation to go through and address them all. If you have two or three that you feel are your strongest, then let me know and I will discuss them.
Hundreds of verses I argue show He is Messiah, yet you offer me not one to show He isn't.
How about this?
[1] "If a prophet arises among you, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder,
[2] and the sign or wonder which he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, `Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, `and let us serve them,'
[3] you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
[4] You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him, and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and cleave to him.
[5] But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from the midst of you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5)
Your mind is made up, a priori, on the issue of Jesus as Messiah
Dittos.
It should not surprise you that I do not consider Strong's Concordance to be a reliable guide to understanding the meaning of the Hebrew scriptures.
As far as your statement re: "faith" is not a gift ,it is free will, I concede. YOu are correct, it is man's free will. He knocks to the heart of all, but it is up to each individual to make that choice, thus free will. YOu are correct, Grace is the free gift.
If the Catholic church's persecution of Jews was because of the Crusades, why did they burn women at the stake along with the sons they had chosen to circumcise, HUH?????
Why'd they kill all the Protestants, too much Protestant-Muslim collusion?
Anyway, the crux of it is Deuteronomy 12:3-4: "...and you shall destroy the names of pagan gods from their places. You shall not do similarly to G_d your Lord." Thus, the names of G_d may be spoken and written freely, but must not be destroyed. Writing His name on something that will be preserved is perfectly fine, which is why the writers of the Bible could throw His name around with abandon. But, by the same token, Deuteronomy 12:3-4 prevents one from destroying a copy of the Bible, precisely because it contains instances of His name.
This really only applies to Hebrew, and specifically only to the Tetragrammaton and the seven other true names of G_d found in the Torah. However, in the tradition of "building a fence around the Torah," many Jews extend the prohibition to English as well, lest by casually using His name in English they wind up forgetting to be careful in Hebrew. Others do this not out of their own belief but out of respect for Orthodox beliefs. Still others do this for reasons entirely their own. I personally straddle the latter two categories. ;-)
Just don't read more into it than is there: At its heart, this practice is no different from any other of the 613 mitzvot, and is motivated by a sincere desire to help perfect the world by conforming to His will. You can read more about this topic here.
A not unreasonable claim, since the (Jewish) translator of the psalms who added them to LXX, well before Jesus' birth, also evidently thought so:
Hoti ekuklo:san me kunes polloi sunago:ge pone:reuomeno:n perieskon me o:ruxan kheiras mou kai podas
The key word is o:ruxan, third person plural aorist active indicative of orusso:, "they have dug". Hence the final phrase is, literally, "they have dug hands my and feet".
By the way, it makes no sense to lie at somebody's hands like a lion, does it?
The Greek, with the relevant words highlighted:
Amne lego: humin hoti ou me: parelthe: he genea aute: heo:s panta tauta gene:tai.
[Matt xxiv:34]
From where, exactly, do you get this notion, that JEWS are the "chosen people of God"?
My reading of scripture tells me that ISRAEL are the chosen of God, not solely the Jews.
Furthermore, all who take up the Cross and follow Jesus Christ are partakers in the promise given to Abraham. In essence, then, those who believe in Christ and follow Christ's teachings are "Israel".
Many Jews are inheritors of the traditions of those who effectively reject Christ (as this news story illustrates), and as such are "no better than infidels." That is, they have no claim on the promise of God to His chosen people.
Anyone who is not of Christ is, in essence, "a gentile," no matter what their ETHNIC origin.
No.
From State Archives of Assyria Literary Texts from the The Neo-Assyrian Text Corpus Project
The Induction of the Cult Image in Ancient Mesopotamia:
The Mesopotamian Mis Pî Ritual
State Archives of Assyria Literary Texts, Volume I
by Christopher Walker and Michael Dick
Helsinki 2001 • 175 x 250 mm • Pp. viii + 268 + CD with
tablet photographs
Paper • $75.00 • ISBN 951-45-9048-1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to George Bernard Shaw, everyone knows the story of Pygmalion and the statue that was brought to life. But the idea of bringing statues to life long predates the classical period. At last the critical edition of the Mesopotamian "Washing of the Mouth" (Mis Pî) ritual has been published. This volume contains all the known texts of the 6 to 8 tablet ritual, including both ritual and incantation tablets; the volume includes new photographs of all the cuneiform manuscripts on a CD-ROM in high quality jpeg format. This book will be of interest to Assyriologists, scholars of the Hebrew Bible, and students of ancient religion and magic. This was the Mesopotamian ritual whereby the cult image was consecrated as the god, in essence, "brought to life." So here we have the most elaborate theology of the cult image preserved anywhere in the ancient world. The original Akkadian and Sumerian texts are given together with English translation. The book begins with an introduction both to the divine cult image in Mesopotamia and to the history of the Mis Pî ritual.
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