The Next Reformation? 9.5 Thesis Posted on 'Church Door'!

9.5 Theses for the Next Reformation

Modern-day Reformers Post Document on 'Church Door'

We the undersigned, out of love for the truth and a desire to see all Christians honor and acknowledge all that God has revealed in his Word, submit these 9.5 Theses for your prayerful evaluation and participation with us in calling for further reform. May these theses be the spark that ignites the next Reformation of Christianity.

1. Everything Jesus said would happen, happened exactly as and when He said it would-within the lifetime of his contemporaries.

2. Everything every New Testament writer expected to happen, happened exactly as and when they expected it would-within their lifetime-as they were guided into all truth and told the things that were to come by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13).

3. Scholars across a broad spectrum are in general agreement that this is exactly how every NT writer and the early Church understood Jesus' words. If they were wrong on something this important, how can we trust them to have conveyed other aspects of the faith accurately, such as the requirements for salvation?

4. No inspired NT writer, writing twenty or more years later, ever corrected their Holy-Spirit-guided understanding and fulfillment expectations (Jn. 16:13). Neither should we. Instead, they intensified their language as the "appointed time of the end" (Dan. 12:4; Hab. 2:3) drew near-from Jesus' "this generation" (Mat. 24:34), to Peter's "the end of all things is at hand" and "for it is time for judgment to begin" (1 Pet. 4:7, 17), and John's "this is the last hour . . . . it is the last hour" (1 Jn. 2:18).

5. Partial fulfillment is not satisfactory. 3 out of 5, 7 out of 10, etc., won't work. Partial does not pass the test of a true prophet (Deut. 18:18-22). Again, Jesus time-restricted all of his end-time predictions to occur within the 1st-century time frame.

6. God is faithful (2 Pet. 3:9) and "not a man that he should lie" (Num. 23:19). Faithfulness means not only doing what was promised, but also doing it when it was promised.

7. 1st-century, fulfillment expectations were the correct ones and everything happened, right on time-no gaps, no gimmicks, no interruptions, no postponements, no delays, no exegetical gymnastics, and no changing the meaning of commonly used and normally understood words. Such manipulative devices have only given liberals and skeptics a foothold to discredit Christ's Deity and the inerrancy of Scripture.

8. What needs adjusting is our understanding of both the time and nature of fulfillment, and not manipulation of the time factor to conform to our popular, futuristic, and delay expectations.

9. The kingdom of God was the central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, is a present but greatly under-realized reality, and must again become the central teaching of his Church.

9.5. We have been guilty of proclaiming a half-truth-a partially delivered faith to the world and to fellow Christians. We must repent and earnestly "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). If Christianity has been as effective as it has by proclaiming that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came, died for our sins, bodily arose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven "at just the right time" (Rom. 5:6; Dan. 9:24-27), how much more effective might it be if we started preaching, teaching, and practicing the whole truth-i.e., a faith in which everything else also happened "at just the right time," exactly as and when Jesus said it would and every NT writer expected (Jn. 16:13). Dare we continue to settle for less?

Surely today, the words of Martin Luther, as he stood in defense before the Diet of Worms in 1521, are still applicable and compelling for the "always reforming" Church:
"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures . . . and my conscience is captive to the Word of God . . . . I cannot do otherwise. "

Original Signatories

John Noe, President Prophecy Reformation Institute Indianapolis, Indiana Rick Chromey, Professor of Christian Education Saint Louis Christian College Florissant, Missouri
Edward E. Stevens, President International Preterist Association Bradford, Pennsylvania
Danny Griffin, President Carolina Christian Ministries Charlotte, North Carolina
John Anderson, President Lighthouse World Ministries Sparta, North Carolina
Walter C. Hibbard, Former Founder & Chairman Great Christian Books, Inc. Newark, Delaware
Mike Lightfoot, Pastor Father's House Fellowship Clarkston, Washington
Terry Siverd, Minister Cortland Church of Christ Cortland, Ohio
Kenneth J. Davies, President Grace Ministries Lemon Grove, California
Joseph Lewis, Pastor Fulfilled Bible Fellowship Delair, New Jersey
Jerry Wayne Bernard, Vice President Scripture Research, Inc. Riverside, California
Arthur J. Melanson, President Joy of the Lord Ministry Audubon, New Jersey
Jerry Hester, Pastor Dominion Community Church Greer, South Carolina
Terry M. Hall, Minister Miami Valley Church Beavercreek, Ohio
Gene Fadeley, President Anchor Publishing Charlotte, North Carolina
Rod Moyses, Manager M2ktalk.Com, (internet-satellite radio networks) Fresno, California
Stan Newton, Pastor Missionary to Bulgaria Seattle, Washington
Timothy R. King, Pastor Central Baptist Church Grand Junction, Colorado
Walter Koch, Pastor Emanuel Centro Christiano El Monte, California
Jack C. Scott, Jr., Minister Glacier View Church Kalispell, Montana
A. Wilson Phillips, Pastor Abundant Life Covenant Church Springfield, Missouri
Thomas A. Price, Jr., Pastor Sherman Community Church Sherman, New York
Don K. Preston, Minister Ardmore Church of Christ Ardmore, Oklahoma
David Curtis, Pastor Berean Bible Church Cheasapeake, Virginia
Jessie E. Mills, Jr., Minister Central Church of Christ Bonifay, Florida
Bud Fleisher, Host/Producer "Let's Talk Religion" (radio program) Clearwater, Florida
Ron Smith, President Friendship In Action (mission work in Mexico) Mission,
Texas Bill Clark Brumbaugh, Host Proactive News (nat'l syndicated radio program) Bozeman, Montana
James R. Hopkins, Minister Daleville Church of Christ Daleville, Alabama
William Bell, Minister Raines Road Church of Christ Memphis, Tennessee

Published by the Prophecy Reformation Institute: a conservative, evangelical ministry dedicated to continuing the Reformation into the field of eschatology-end-time Bible prophecy, and the International Preterist Association.

Books for the Next Reformation
· Chilton, David. "The Days of Vengeance." Ft. Worth, TX.: Dominion Press, 1987.
· DeMar, Gary, "Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, 3rd ed., 1997.
· *________. "End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology." Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2001.
· Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. "Before Jerusalem Fell." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, revised ed., 1998.
· *Noe, John. "Beyond the End Times: The Rest of . . . The Greatest Story Ever Told. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· *________. "Dead In Their Tracks: Stopping the Liberal/Skeptic Attack on the Bible." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2001.
· ________. "Shattering the ‘Left Behind’ Delusion." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· ________. "The Israel Illusion: 13 Popular Misconceptions about This Modern-day Nation and Its Role in Bible Prophecy. "Fishers, IN.: PRI, 2000.
· ________. Top Ten Misconceptions about Jesus’ Second Coming and the End Times. Fishers, IN.: PRI, 1998.
· Otto, Randell E. "Case Dismissed: Rebutting Common Charges Against Preterism." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· Russell, J. Stuart. "The Parousia." Bradford, Pennsylvania: IPA, 2002. Reprint of the second edition originally published by T. Fisher Unwin, in London, England in 1887.
· *Sproul, R.C. "The Last Days According to Jesus. "Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1998.
· Stevens, Edward E. "Questions About The Afterlife. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· ________. "What Happened In A.D. 70?" Bradford, PA.: IPA, 6th ed., 2001.
· Terry, Milton S. "Biblical Hermeneutics. "Eugene, OR.: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1890, 1999.

* (top priority—read first)

FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: John Noe Prophecy Reformation Institute 9715 Kincaid Drive Suite 1100 Fishers, IN 46038
E-mail: jnoe@prophecyrefi.org Ph.# 317-841-7777, Ext. 350 Fax# 317-578-2110

Edward E. Stevens International Preterist Association 122 Seaward Ave. Bradford, PA 16701
E-mail: Preterist1@aol.com Ph.# 1-814-368-6578 Fax# 1-814-368-6030

Be sure to visit our websites: www.prophecyrefi.org. Website: www.preterist.org.

_ Copyright 2001 by John Noe
All rights reserved. This material may be reproduced or transmitted by any means in any form, electronic or mechanical, including photocopy, recording, or any information storage and retrieval system, without prior written permission, but only in its entirety-i.e., both pages.

I guess that I just don't see it, especially your understanding that there will be no final consummation of history.

(Aren't we all glad that a complete understanding of eschatology is not a requirement for salvation?!?)

I guess that I just don't see it, especially your understanding that there will be no final consummation of history.

And that's fine as you say after.
You are willing to look into it as many are not.
The "end of the world" belief is a big one for all partial-preterist's. There is a need to see it all end.
I don't think that was God's plan. The only end the bible ever declares is the "end of the age." Hebrews more specifically calls it the "vanishing away" of the old covenant.
God has the power to redeem men without destroying His whole creation work.
(Aren't we all glad that a complete understanding of eschatology is not a requirement for salvation?!?)

AMEN

And how do you like living in a world where Satan is chained in a bottomless pit, so as to not deceive the nations any more (preteristic twisting of Rev. 20 to contradict 1 Peter 5:7).

Ping to that ! I have traditionally found myself at a loss to describe what scripture seemed to indicate to my non theological mind. then thanks to some charts I found that it had a name attached to it "historical premillenial"

I took a class in college on the Book of Revelation /Daniel taught from a Preterist view (I didn't know it had a name then) by a Catholic priest . The students used to meet a half hour BEFORE the class to pray for his soul LOL....I will read this thread and bump it if you all like. but like Dan..the pieces just do not seem to fit IMHO

If it was taught by a catholic, it was their version of it.

We can not deny the effect of Christ's words and the beliefs of His apostles as they taught a very near coming of Christ because Christ Himself declared their generation would see it (Matt 16, 23, 24, 26, Luke 21).

Just as many denominations struggle with understanding God, His fulfillment and consistant prophetic use of hyperbole are for His means and understood by those who needed to understand it most. Christ's contemporaries.

Doesn't it seem funny how confusing it all is? I'll bet it wasn't to them.
Why would God be so clear to those who didn't need the warnings? And so foggy to those who do?
Could you show a picture (word or drawing) of a donkey and elephant fighting 2000 years from now and expect common understanding of it's meaning?
We know what it means though. Beacause it applies to us.

False prediction after false prediction makes us all look as fools.
"They are failed prophets of a false premise." John Noe.

Oh, the pieces assuredly DO NOT fit. Like relativism, preterism is a self-defeating position. If prophecy is really "saying" what the "consistent preterists" say it is saying, then the Bible says NOTHING. All Scripture becomes a slave of the interpreter's notions, with no controls and no inherent meaning. Might as well go straight back to Rome, where at least irrational interpretations must be held "just because the Church says so." At least that's a reason. It's not a good reason, but it's a reason.

Or really, more to the point and more logically, just bail on the whole thing. Because if prophetic passages don't mean what they say, there is no guarantee that soteriological or Christological passages do, either. (I used to do this when I was a cultist.)

Dan

I refuse to join the crown who would call Him a liar.

and you insinuate what? - my point was the thread was going to be a venimous one - thats all.

Matthew 21:43 - Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it."

Who is Israel? Romans 9.

God clearly did away with the covenant to a bloodline" and adopted all men into the promised fulfillment!

Nate you do need to write to John Rob and see why your private reply only shows part of your name..I was going to mention it to you before..I happen to be persistent (in case you haven't noticed:>) so I tried a couple different ways till I figured out the problem..others may just give up!!

Of course, that doesn't mean a future judgement (and an ultimate end) isn't still forthcoming.

Genesis 8:21-22. God declares one will not come.

I will change my preterist position when I see that the temple is being rebuilt

Even that doesn't negate Christs telling of "when" (Matt 16, 23, 24, 26, Luke 21) compounded by the apostles teachings.

Could you do me a small favor and provide a definition of that term? My little dictionary seems to have skipped the term.

Someone who holds the past with much favor.
Someone who believes that bible prophecy was fulfilled in the past.

Does the fact that Protestants can't seem to agree on anything,bother you?

LOL..the biggest objector in that class was a Sister of Mercy..she dogged that priest**Grin**

Most everyday Catholics have huge differences in one or more areas with Rome ..they just shut up and let him think he has all the answers:>)

The book "Paradise Restored" by David Chilton, is available ON LINE FREE for all to read at www.freebooks.com

I was priviledged to meet Dr.Chilton a few years before he was called to be with the Lord, he signed my copy of "Paradise Restored".

This book is amazing; well written; easy to understand, demonstrates that the Post-Millenial view IS Biblical.. and what a disaster Dispensationalism truly is.

(Aren't we all glad that a complete understanding of eschatology is not a requirement for salvation?!?)

Hey, I have far too many other things to learn before I grab hold of the horns of "eschatology." As Grand Pappy used to say: "Only a New Yorker grabs the bull by the horns; and then only once."

Still, though, I have read enough to be with you Jerry in the Historic Pre-Mil camp. (At least you told me that's what it is called.)

Luther himself said that reformation never ends.

Indeed. Interesting that one group of his philosophical heirs, the Communists, spoke in a manner similar to their father: "the revolution never ends." Peas in a pod.

The preterist Bible becomes a very short document. All it says is Gort, klaatu berada nicto!

How many preterists does it take to change a light bulb?

None....they changed it back in A D 70 :)

Oh, hello Nate.

BigMack

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