The Next Reformation? 9.5 Thesis Posted on 'Church Door'!

9.5 Theses for the Next Reformation

Modern-day Reformers Post Document on 'Church Door'

We the undersigned, out of love for the truth and a desire to see all Christians honor and acknowledge all that God has revealed in his Word, submit these 9.5 Theses for your prayerful evaluation and participation with us in calling for further reform. May these theses be the spark that ignites the next Reformation of Christianity.

1. Everything Jesus said would happen, happened exactly as and when He said it would-within the lifetime of his contemporaries.

2. Everything every New Testament writer expected to happen, happened exactly as and when they expected it would-within their lifetime-as they were guided into all truth and told the things that were to come by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13).

3. Scholars across a broad spectrum are in general agreement that this is exactly how every NT writer and the early Church understood Jesus' words. If they were wrong on something this important, how can we trust them to have conveyed other aspects of the faith accurately, such as the requirements for salvation?

4. No inspired NT writer, writing twenty or more years later, ever corrected their Holy-Spirit-guided understanding and fulfillment expectations (Jn. 16:13). Neither should we. Instead, they intensified their language as the "appointed time of the end" (Dan. 12:4; Hab. 2:3) drew near-from Jesus' "this generation" (Mat. 24:34), to Peter's "the end of all things is at hand" and "for it is time for judgment to begin" (1 Pet. 4:7, 17), and John's "this is the last hour . . . . it is the last hour" (1 Jn. 2:18).

5. Partial fulfillment is not satisfactory. 3 out of 5, 7 out of 10, etc., won't work. Partial does not pass the test of a true prophet (Deut. 18:18-22). Again, Jesus time-restricted all of his end-time predictions to occur within the 1st-century time frame.

6. God is faithful (2 Pet. 3:9) and "not a man that he should lie" (Num. 23:19). Faithfulness means not only doing what was promised, but also doing it when it was promised.

7. 1st-century, fulfillment expectations were the correct ones and everything happened, right on time-no gaps, no gimmicks, no interruptions, no postponements, no delays, no exegetical gymnastics, and no changing the meaning of commonly used and normally understood words. Such manipulative devices have only given liberals and skeptics a foothold to discredit Christ's Deity and the inerrancy of Scripture.

8. What needs adjusting is our understanding of both the time and nature of fulfillment, and not manipulation of the time factor to conform to our popular, futuristic, and delay expectations.

9. The kingdom of God was the central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, is a present but greatly under-realized reality, and must again become the central teaching of his Church.

9.5. We have been guilty of proclaiming a half-truth-a partially delivered faith to the world and to fellow Christians. We must repent and earnestly "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). If Christianity has been as effective as it has by proclaiming that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came, died for our sins, bodily arose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven "at just the right time" (Rom. 5:6; Dan. 9:24-27), how much more effective might it be if we started preaching, teaching, and practicing the whole truth-i.e., a faith in which everything else also happened "at just the right time," exactly as and when Jesus said it would and every NT writer expected (Jn. 16:13). Dare we continue to settle for less?

Surely today, the words of Martin Luther, as he stood in defense before the Diet of Worms in 1521, are still applicable and compelling for the "always reforming" Church:
"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures . . . and my conscience is captive to the Word of God . . . . I cannot do otherwise. "

Original Signatories

John Noe, President Prophecy Reformation Institute Indianapolis, Indiana Rick Chromey, Professor of Christian Education Saint Louis Christian College Florissant, Missouri
Edward E. Stevens, President International Preterist Association Bradford, Pennsylvania
Danny Griffin, President Carolina Christian Ministries Charlotte, North Carolina
John Anderson, President Lighthouse World Ministries Sparta, North Carolina
Walter C. Hibbard, Former Founder & Chairman Great Christian Books, Inc. Newark, Delaware
Mike Lightfoot, Pastor Father's House Fellowship Clarkston, Washington
Terry Siverd, Minister Cortland Church of Christ Cortland, Ohio
Kenneth J. Davies, President Grace Ministries Lemon Grove, California
Joseph Lewis, Pastor Fulfilled Bible Fellowship Delair, New Jersey
Jerry Wayne Bernard, Vice President Scripture Research, Inc. Riverside, California
Arthur J. Melanson, President Joy of the Lord Ministry Audubon, New Jersey
Jerry Hester, Pastor Dominion Community Church Greer, South Carolina
Terry M. Hall, Minister Miami Valley Church Beavercreek, Ohio
Gene Fadeley, President Anchor Publishing Charlotte, North Carolina
Rod Moyses, Manager M2ktalk.Com, (internet-satellite radio networks) Fresno, California
Stan Newton, Pastor Missionary to Bulgaria Seattle, Washington
Timothy R. King, Pastor Central Baptist Church Grand Junction, Colorado
Walter Koch, Pastor Emanuel Centro Christiano El Monte, California
Jack C. Scott, Jr., Minister Glacier View Church Kalispell, Montana
A. Wilson Phillips, Pastor Abundant Life Covenant Church Springfield, Missouri
Thomas A. Price, Jr., Pastor Sherman Community Church Sherman, New York
Don K. Preston, Minister Ardmore Church of Christ Ardmore, Oklahoma
David Curtis, Pastor Berean Bible Church Cheasapeake, Virginia
Jessie E. Mills, Jr., Minister Central Church of Christ Bonifay, Florida
Bud Fleisher, Host/Producer "Let's Talk Religion" (radio program) Clearwater, Florida
Ron Smith, President Friendship In Action (mission work in Mexico) Mission,
Texas Bill Clark Brumbaugh, Host Proactive News (nat'l syndicated radio program) Bozeman, Montana
James R. Hopkins, Minister Daleville Church of Christ Daleville, Alabama
William Bell, Minister Raines Road Church of Christ Memphis, Tennessee

Published by the Prophecy Reformation Institute: a conservative, evangelical ministry dedicated to continuing the Reformation into the field of eschatology-end-time Bible prophecy, and the International Preterist Association.

Books for the Next Reformation
· Chilton, David. "The Days of Vengeance." Ft. Worth, TX.: Dominion Press, 1987.
· DeMar, Gary, "Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, 3rd ed., 1997.
· *________. "End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology." Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2001.
· Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. "Before Jerusalem Fell." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, revised ed., 1998.
· *Noe, John. "Beyond the End Times: The Rest of . . . The Greatest Story Ever Told. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· *________. "Dead In Their Tracks: Stopping the Liberal/Skeptic Attack on the Bible." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2001.
· ________. "Shattering the ‘Left Behind’ Delusion." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· ________. "The Israel Illusion: 13 Popular Misconceptions about This Modern-day Nation and Its Role in Bible Prophecy. "Fishers, IN.: PRI, 2000.
· ________. Top Ten Misconceptions about Jesus’ Second Coming and the End Times. Fishers, IN.: PRI, 1998.
· Otto, Randell E. "Case Dismissed: Rebutting Common Charges Against Preterism." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· Russell, J. Stuart. "The Parousia." Bradford, Pennsylvania: IPA, 2002. Reprint of the second edition originally published by T. Fisher Unwin, in London, England in 1887.
· *Sproul, R.C. "The Last Days According to Jesus. "Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1998.
· Stevens, Edward E. "Questions About The Afterlife. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· ________. "What Happened In A.D. 70?" Bradford, PA.: IPA, 6th ed., 2001.
· Terry, Milton S. "Biblical Hermeneutics. "Eugene, OR.: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1890, 1999.

* (top priority—read first)

FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: John Noe Prophecy Reformation Institute 9715 Kincaid Drive Suite 1100 Fishers, IN 46038
E-mail: jnoe@prophecyrefi.org Ph.# 317-841-7777, Ext. 350 Fax# 317-578-2110

Edward E. Stevens International Preterist Association 122 Seaward Ave. Bradford, PA 16701
E-mail: Preterist1@aol.com Ph.# 1-814-368-6578 Fax# 1-814-368-6030

Be sure to visit our websites: www.prophecyrefi.org. Website: www.preterist.org.

_ Copyright 2001 by John Noe
All rights reserved. This material may be reproduced or transmitted by any means in any form, electronic or mechanical, including photocopy, recording, or any information storage and retrieval system, without prior written permission, but only in its entirety-i.e., both pages.

I became a partial preterist when I started a heavy study of the prophets in the Old Testament and realized that many of the apocalyptic prophecies were referring to the fall of the northern kingdom of Israel, the Babylonian exile, & the fall of the temple. So much of the wording in Revelation is heavily borrowed from those prophets (Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.)

Logic follows... why not apply it to the destruction of the temple in 76 AD, and to the persecution of Christians in Rome until the 300s?

Of course, that doesn't mean a future judgement (and an ultimate end) isn't still forthcoming.

I will change my preterist position when I see that the temple is being rebuilt (a MUST for the events in the book of Revelation to occur)... and it doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon since Muslims have control over the original site, and the UN/the world isn't going to yeild Israel another acre of land anytime soon.

But then, only God knows!

If preterists see it as already fulfilled in the first century, exactly what event fulfilled it?

Christ addressed this in His description of the events of this time.

2 views here:
1. The sudden lack of apostolic teaching/writtings indicate that a "rapture" did occur in AD 70.
2. A "rapture" is symbolic as described by Jesus in
Matt 24:16 ...flee to the mountains; 17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house; 18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle. 19 And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath.

There is nothing about anyone escaping this tribulation mentioned by Christ except by these means.
Who would flee? Christians. Because they would be the only ones to heed His voice.

Christ then describes it like as with Noah:
.Matt 24: 37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, [and the Christians fled to the mountains] 39 and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. [see again verses 16-17]41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Why watch if we are going to be taken forcefully by surprise?
Because the "taken is only in relation to perception. Those who did not know to flee would percieve they were taken when they actually, without hesitation (vs 16) fled to the mountains.

Note:
Paul also said it WOULD NOT be a surprise to the Christians:
1 Thess 5:3 When people say, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape.[but not to the Christian]
4 But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all sons of light and sons of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

Once again admonished to "watch" by Paul, this time, for an event which will overtake us? Forcefully?
No, they were to flee so they had to watch.

Be weary of "partial-preterism". They make the same mistake.

Luke 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies,[AD 70] then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it; 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfil all that is written.

This includes Daniel 12. The best writing on the resurrection and timing of these there is. Daniel 12 puts all 3 events (resurrection, rapture, tribulation) in the same time frame.

I have no problem believing that Christians will experience tribulation. I have no problem seeing the event commonly called "the rapture" as actually being the "coming of the Lord". However, when I read preterist rebuttals of pre-millenialism (such as yours), they appear to be addressing the errors of dispensational pre-millenialism, and ignore the historical position.

Do you really think that fleeing to the mountains or the end of apostolic teachings/writings was what the Apostle Paul had in mind when he wrote:For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (I Thes 4:16-18) ?

When, exactly, was every one in the world required to have a number on their hands or foreheads to buy and sell?
Thoughts, Actions.
Remember, the 144,000 were also sealed in the same place. How come futurists do not make a deal out of their markings for righteousness? Because it is figurative.
Thoughts and actions.

could you direct me to the new Heaven and New Earth, where nothing accursed dwells?

In your heart. Where two or more are gathered in His name.
New heavens - The New Covenant (hearts and minds of the Christians living in the Spirit).
New Earth - New Covenant (actions and lives of those living in the fruits of the Spirit. Beatitudes).
New Jerusalem - The Church together living out Christ. In Rev 21, the New Jerusalem is a "bride adorned for her husband".
Who is the biblical bride of Christ? The faithful virgins?

BTW, did I sleep through the 1,000 year reign of my Lord? I'm sorry I missed out on that...

You couldn't have. It was past.
Anyway, Christ owns the cattle on a "thousand" hills.
Two a "thousand" generation.
What about the remaining hills and remaining generations?

This time frame is a figurative amount of time just as the amount of Hills and Generations are figurative.

The actual time, in my best guess (because it is a GUESS. fulfillment is sure, the how is not) is the 40 year time span between Christs beginning ministry and the AD 70 temple destruction or "fleeing" of the saints.

Still looking for clarity.

When Peter states: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (II Peter 3:10-13), is he speaking of something that occured in the first century, or is this still awaiting fulfillment?

In what way did the "elements melt" if this has already been fulfilled?

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words

This event is also the time in which the New Jerusalem decends out of heaven.
All are changed and are in this New Heavens and New Earth to be with the Lord forever.

But He is with us.
The temple of the new covenant is God Himself.

As this decending of Jerusalem is symbolic of the finality of the new covenant establishment of "God with men", in their hearts (Heb 8 and 10).

Caught up is a spiritual term of them being "with Christ."
The "clouds" in the Bible prophecies always meant "presence or judgment". This is a "presence" term in this verse.

The stars never literally fell from heaven in the numerous old testament prophecy fulfillments of that language.

Christ never wanted us out of the world (John 17) and as Noah, He was never going to make us "disappear." Just deliver us to be with Him in the new covenant forever. In His presence forever.
This happened as they fled and watched His judgment, just as Noah saw it happen to his generation.

Christ destroyed the old and established the new.

I think you and I must agree to disagree on this. For this thesis to be correct, Scripture must be composed of gross hyperbole or flat out innaccuracies.

I do not doubt that Christ predicted the destruction of Jerusalem, but like the OT prophets, NT prophets were not just speaking for their time. The Bible speaks for every generation; even the last one on this earth. As far as I know, we still have an active adversary (not bound or finally judged yet) and the entire world has not been deceived while suffering the horrible events in Rev. Chs. 6 - 20.

I will keep living the way Cjrist has strengthened me to do; living my life so that I will not be ashamed at the instant of his return.
One thing is certain, I am closer to the Judgment Seat of G-d today than I was yesterday.

In essentials, Unity. In non - essentials, Liberty. In all things, Love.

Are the events of I Thessalonians 4:13-18 (described by dispensationalists as the "rapture", but self-described by the text as the "coming of the Lord".) seen by preterists as future or already fulfilled?

Most Preterists see the Second Coming as a future event. There are some who are called "Hymenaen Preterists"(II Timothy 2:17-18) (they usually call themselves "Full Preterists") who see the Second Coming as fulfilled in some sort of sense and that this world will continue on ad infinitum.

This link has some articles that discuss the issue:

Eschatology at www.reformed.org

How do your recent answers to questions posed square with Thesis #7 ("1st-century, fulfillment expectations were the correct ones and everything happened, right on time-no gaps, no gimmicks, no interruptions, no postponements, no delays, no exegetical gymnastics, and no changing the meaning of commonly used and normally understood words. Such manipulative devices have only given liberals and skeptics a foothold to discredit Christ's Deity and the inerrancy of Scripture.")?

It appears to me that you have to engage at least in some "exegetical gymnastics" in determining what is literal and what is figurative as well as squeezing 1,000 years into a 40 year period.

It appears to me that you have to engage at least in some "exegetical gymnastics" in determining what is literal and what is figurative as well as squeezing 1,000 years into a 40 year period.

You are right. This thesis is a starting point.
Numerous signitaries also differ with Mr. Noe on the 40 year gap.
The 70 weeks was to complete Christ's work.
Hebrews 2:8, 1 Cor 15 says His work was not yet complete.
The second coming was essential to our completed salvation. It was the time that all things would be put "under His feet."

I call it a "Christ determined waiting period." I agree with the dispensationalists on a church age (millenial period) but it's timing and context have to fall within scripture. Hebrews sheds awesome light on this.

It is not gymnastics to use "stars fall from heaven", "sun darkened", "clouds are His chariot," "Coming in the clouds" "1000 years" in light of the past prophetic hyperbole they were used before.
It is called consistancy.

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