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US fears Iraq radar can see stealth plane
telegraph uk ^ | 1/6/01

Posted on 01/05/2002 4:14:44 PM PST by knak

UNITED STATES defence chiefs may have to review their strategy for phase 2 of the war after it emerged that Baghdad could have acquired a radar system capable of detecting America's multi-billion-pound fleet of stealth bombers.

The radar is believed to be the same Czech-built type used by Serb forces to shoot down a US F117 Nighthawk stealth bomber and seriously damage another during the war in Kosovo in 1999.

US intelligence chiefs believe that Iraqi generals attempted to buy a system for £176 million from the Czech Republic in 1997 but the deal collapsed after it was exposed by the CIA.

The Telegraph, however, has learnt that after the closure of the Czech defence company Tesla-Pardubice in 1998, two of its Tamara radar systems, which Iraq wanted to acquire, "disappeared", and might have been acquired by rogue arms traders working for Baghdad.

A former employee of the company said last night: "Tesla-Pardubice closed in 1998. It had two radar systems that had not been sold but they have disappeared. Nobody knows where they are."

Rob Hewson, the editor of Jane's Air Launched Weapons, said the weight of circumstantial evidence indicated that Iraq had probably acquired a radar system capable of "seeing" stealth bombers.

He said: "The Pentagon is faced with the prospect that Iraq may have a system that can see stealth bombers and they are very, very worried."

The disclosure is likely to affect the next stages of the war against terrorism and influence whether the US decides to carry out a full-scale attack against Saddam Hussein's regime.

Last week it emerged that stocks of US air-launched cruise missiles had been virtually exhausted after attacks on Kosovo and Sudan, further hampering Pentagon plans for an attack against Iraq.

The B2 stealth bomber and the F117 stealth fighter both played vital roles in the Kosovan and Afghan wars and, together with the mass use of cruise missiles, they are part of a crucial first phase of US attack plans.

Such is the sensitivity surrounding stealth aircraft that even the mere suggestion that an enemy power may have the capability to detect or shoot one down is enough to ground the 20-strong fleet.

A spokesman for the US Department of Defence, said: "It stands to reason that Iraq would want to get its hands on a radar system capable of detecting stealth bombers.

" In the Gulf war, it was the early F117 attacks that put most of their air defence systems out of commission. But we don't know whether they have such a system at the moment."

The Czech radar system uses passive detection to pick up electronic emissions from stealth aircraft.

A spokesman for the Czech Embassy confirmed that when the company went bankrupt in 1998 it still had at least two Tamara systems, but he refused to comment on whether they had disappeared.

The B2 stealth aircraft is painted with a substance that absorbs radar waves, producing an image on a radar screen the size of a large marble. The Serb forces, however, demonstrated what can be achieved by being able to detect stealth aircraft.

During the Kosovo conflict, the Serbs are believed to have plugged powerful computers into their air-defence radar system that help to reveal the flight paths from the faint stealth radar signatures.

When a stealth bomber was suspected to be flying through their area they saturated the sky with missile and heavy machine-gun fire and managed to shoot one down.

Osama bin Laden has been named Iraq's Man of The Year, according to the official Iraqi press, because of the way in which he has "raised the image of Islam and defied the might of the USA".


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events
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To: da_toolman
:o)
61 posted on 01/05/2002 6:23:56 PM PST by VaBthang4
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To: VaBthang4
They are gone. Used to like watching them at Indian Springs north of Vegas. That base is also gone. They practically came right up to the fence along 95 getting ready to take off.
62 posted on 01/05/2002 6:27:15 PM PST by willyone
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To: Enlightiator
"Precision attack aircraft" per your reference.

"F"-117?

Don't get hung-up on what your 'gummint tells you.

63 posted on 01/05/2002 6:28:10 PM PST by KirklandJunction
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To: Enlightiator
Some of my sources have indicated the F-117 can carry Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. It probably was intended as an AWACS-killer (going after Russian Mainstay and Moss AEW planes). Sneak in close, pop a couple Sidewinders at the AWACS, one or two at the escorts, then close the bay doors and vanish into the night...

While the F-15s and F-16s make like velociraptors and start slaughtering the OPFOR's poor pilots.

64 posted on 01/05/2002 6:32:06 PM PST by hchutch
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To: OKCSubmariner
These wouldn't be the same ones behind the sellout to China would they? Yes they would. Making money is far more important than national security. I believe you will find Bush Senior, Kissinger and Baker at the center of this effort.
65 posted on 01/05/2002 6:36:56 PM PST by willyone
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To: VaBthang4
Start here

And here

And here

66 posted on 01/05/2002 6:37:34 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: harpseal,Travis McGee,Squantos,sneakypete,Chapita;COB1
The F-117 got hit because it was returning from a strike and it's bomb bay doors were stuck open. This allowed radar to see it. The plane had a history of this trouble, all this information is on FR.


67 posted on 01/05/2002 6:40:01 PM PST by razorback-bert
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To: Buckeroo
The stealth bomber isn't that fast, it doesn't have to be. One of the underlying purposes of creating stealth is to eliminate the need for speed and the weight, engines and airframe assemblies (and fuel load) that capacity entails. From the information I've seen the B-2 cruises at somewhere in the 430knot range. Compared to the old F-111 or the B-1B, it's considerably slower counting on its technology to protect it.
68 posted on 01/05/2002 6:47:28 PM PST by middie
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To: Buckeroo
The stealth bomber isn't that fast, it doesn't have to be. One of the underlying purposes of creating stealth is to eliminate the need for speed and the weight, engines and airframe assemblies (and fuel load) that capacity entails. From the information I've seen the B-2 cruises at somewhere in the 430knot range. Compared to the old F-111 or the B-1B, it's considerably slower counting on its technology to protect it.
69 posted on 01/05/2002 6:47:31 PM PST by middie
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To: KirklandJunction;hchutch
I understand that the "F" designator doesn't "prove" either way whether a given aircraft is more bomber than fighter, or vise versa (the F111 is sometimes called a fighter/bomber). What with the F117 bomb carrying capacity, I don't call it a bomber. Now the B-52, the B1, the B2, those are bombers, they carry decent payloads.

I call the F117 a figher because the Air Force does. Here are the guys who fly them:
--------------------------------------------

Holloman Air Force Base: The F-117A Nighthawk

F-117 Nighthawk

The F-117A Nighthawk is the world's first operational aircraft designed to exploit low observable stealth technology. This aircraft is flown by pilots of the 49th Fighter Wing, Holloman Air Force Base, N.M., which reports to Air Combat Command with headquarters at Langley Air Force Base, Va. The F-117 is a single-seat fighter and is designed to penetrate dense threat environments as well as attack high value targets with pinpoint accuracy.

The unique design of the F-117 provides exceptional combat capabilities. About the size of an F-15 Eagle, the twin engine aircraft is powered by two General Electric F404 turbofan engines and has quadruple redundant fly-by-wire flight controls. With an air refueling capability, the F-117 supports worldwide commitments and adds to the deterrent strength of the U.S. military forces.

The F-117 can employ a variety of weapons and is equipped with sophisticated navigation and attack systems integrated into a state-of-the-art digital avionics suite that increases mission effectiveness and reduces pilot workload. Detailed planning for missions into highly defended target areas is accomplished by an automated mission planning system developed specifically to optimize the unique capabilities of the F-117.

A total of 59 F-117 aircraft have been procured. The first TAC aircraft were delivered in 1982, and the last delivery was made in July 1990. Streamlined management by Aeronautical Systems Division, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, combined breakthrough stealth technology with concurrent development and production to rapidly field the aircraft. The F-117 production decision was made in 1978 with a contract awarded to the Lockheed Advanced Development Projects, nicknamed "Skunk Works," in Burbank, Calif. The first flight was in 1981, only 31 months after the full-scale development decision. TAC's first F-117 unit, the 4450th Tactical Group (TG) achieved initial operational capability in October 1983.

The 4450th TG was deactivated in October 1989, and was reactivated as the 37th Tactical Fighter Wing. The F-117 has been employed in combat during both Operation JUST CAUSE (December 1989) and Operation DESERT STORM (January-February 1991). The official arrival ceremony for the F-117 to Holloman AFB was conducted May 9, 1992. The aircraft was officially named the Nighthawk in June 1994.

The F-117 has demonstrated that a stealth aircraft can be designed for reliability and maintainability. This aircraft's maintenance statistics are comparable to other tactical fighters of similar size and complexity. Logistically supported by Sacramento Air Logistics Center, McClellan AFB, Calif., the F-117 is kept at the forefront of technology through a planned weapon system improvement program located at USAF Plant 42 in Palmdale, Calif.

Specifications

Function: fighter, attack
Max gross weight: 52,500
Prime contractor: Lockheed Advanced Projects
Speed: high subsonic
Power plant/manufacturer: two General Electric F404 engines
Range: unlimited with air refueling
Crew: one
Status: operational
Dimensions: wingspan 43 ft. 4 in., length 65 ft. 11in., height 12 ft. 5 in.
Armament: internal weapons carriage

70 posted on 01/05/2002 6:49:45 PM PST by Enlightiator
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To: middie
I think the US military should start using the Aurora
71 posted on 01/05/2002 6:50:54 PM PST by RenegadeGDI
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To: Fury
The F in F-117 refers to 'fighter', but the planes dual role is 'fighter-bomber' in that it carries two 2000 pound intelligent bombs. The B-2 is a 'pure' bomber.

The B-52, while able to carry a large bomb load, has no capability to control the intelligent bombs as the F-117 does. During the last days of the Gulf War, the B-52's were to be loaded with the intelligent bombs and be accompanied by an F-117 which would control them as they were released one by from the B-52.

With the advent of the new JDAM bombs which are controlled by the GPS, the need for the F-117 escort would be reduced if we knew the exact coordinates of the targets to be hit.

72 posted on 01/05/2002 6:56:28 PM PST by dglang
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To: Yeti
No B-2 has ever been shot down. An F-117 was shot down.
73 posted on 01/05/2002 7:01:20 PM PST by denydenydeny
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Just an offshoot to the original thread...

1st thanks for the links.

this is a quote from the second link:
"Because it would not transmit signals but simply monitor existing television and radio frequencies, the Chinese system would be "silent" and virtually impossible to find and destroy. An added attraction of such a system to the Chinese is its cheapness. All they would need, say experts, is an integrated network of thousands of antennae working like old-fashioned television aerials. The only sophisticated part is the computer processing used for deciphering the signals."

Therein lies it's weakness...

If it needs these antennaes then those are what we can defeat.[Dont ask me how but there is the window]. I would think EMP blasts could take that out? What do you think?
Wouldnt it be better strategically to just monitor this television and radio traffic from a space based platform or am I nowhere in the ballpark?

74 posted on 01/05/2002 7:03:41 PM PST by VaBthang4
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To: middie
I appreciate the input. But it is fast considering it's payload characteristics. It is easily deployed around the world, too.

I don't think radar is much of a worry.

Best Regards!
Buckeroo

75 posted on 01/05/2002 7:04:29 PM PST by Buckeroo
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To: VaBthang4
Kick me, I'm Czeck....
76 posted on 01/05/2002 7:05:06 PM PST by joyful1
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To: Mixer
But do not forget history--for every new military weapon developed, someone eventually comes up with an effective counter measure. Stealth technology is 20 years old, enough time for somebody to figure it out. However in that twenty year span, what weapon system(s) have been developed by the US but still are secret and yet unused?
77 posted on 01/05/2002 7:08:22 PM PST by buckalfa
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To: joyful1
LOL...okay, yes Joyful you shot down a stealth, very good job.
78 posted on 01/05/2002 7:09:17 PM PST by VaBthang4
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To: knak
US fears Iraq radar can see stealth plane

... and Iraq should fear our HARM missiles which are designed to see and seek-out their little RADAR ...

79 posted on 01/05/2002 7:10:02 PM PST by _Jim
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Bingo you hit it - bad guys have been working over this idea for sometime. Cell sites seem to work really well for some reason. Probably the plane is not as effective in that band of the spectrum.
80 posted on 01/05/2002 7:14:42 PM PST by mad_as_he$$
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