Time to Abolish Clerical Celibacy

frontpagemag.com ^ | January 3, 2002 | Jamie Glazov

[Orual]

Remember this?

[discostu]

While you can twist the logic into stupid nots they're all strawmen. Look it's simple. Take the preistly raments out of it. If you had a friend that was a life long bachelor, had never been in a committed relationship and professed to no urge at all to change that, and he started giving you advice about your marriage what would you think? You'd think he doesn't know what he's talking about. And you'd be right. Now we've got some priest that's not allowed to even contemplate a relationship with anyone but God, who probably doesn't know me as well as the hypothetical friend (how can he, a priest has more parishioners than most people have friends, and doesn't spend as much time with his parishioners as most people do with their friends), and I'm supposed to listen to his advice.

You've got to have some sort of referential experience in order to give useful advice. This is one of the big lessons we learned during and after Viet Nam. We had all these vets coming back with emotional problems because of their war experiences and they went to shrinks that turned out to have dodged the draft and had no idea what is was like to slog through the jungles with people shooting at you. And they couldn't relate. The vet would talk about his experience and the shrink would say they understood and everybody in the room knew the shrink was full of crap because he had no way to understand.

It's not the priests fault and I'm not attacking them. I am attacking the Church that said for a number of years that you shouldn't seek advice from anyone other than your priest. They put priests in a position where they had to deal with things they couldn't. If you want to know what the Bible says about something, ask a priest. If you want to know how to solve difficulties between yourself and your spouse, ask somebody who has at least tried to solve difficulties between themself and their spouse.

I do give advice, I give a lot of advice, it's my thing. But I only give advice on things I understand, things where I have parallel experiences. Anything outside of that realm I'm completely honest with my friend and tell them I'll listen all they want but I won't give advice because I'd just be making things up off the top of my head with no foundation. And I think so called marriage counselors that have never been married are a joke and people that go to them are fools. It's like asking someone that's never seen a car before how to rebuild your engine, how would they know?

[Jack Barbara]

Forced clerical celibacy simply has to go.

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. If you don't want to be a priest, don't be one.

[conservonator]

I was born in a family that was leaving the Catholic church, and clerical celibacy was one of the reasons, as my mom regularly put it: how can someone who avoids the bond of romantic love, someone that has never and will never enter into the relationship of marriage, someone that will never rear children, how can this person give any useful advice to his parishioners on the problems that are most common in their life (ie problems with the marriage and kids)?

Some of the worst advice I have ever received regarding marriage and children came from married people with children.

This type of "logic" leads to the belief that only congress critters that share your gender and ethnicity can effectively represent you. Silly

[Orual]

The SSPX is OUTSIDE the Roman Catholic Church because it is NOT in union with the Pope.

Ah, my favorite subject, the Pope. You needn't use upper case for emphasis, I can hear you shouting. We pray for him every Sunday, on First Fridays, First Saturdays, after Benediction, during Holy Hours, during all night adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, on Holy Days of Obligation - all the time. Look around you, sinkspur, and see the devastation that has occurred in the Church during his Pontificate.

But we will never agree on any of this. Enough said.

[patent]

>>>>It is you who are outside the Roman Catholic Church. How old is your new "church" - about 40 years old, I think. Mine is around 2,000 years old, unchanged and unchangeable.

Last time I check sinkspur's Bishop wasn't excommunicated. Yours was.

Its kind of funny that you accuse him of being in a "new" church only 40 years old, when the illicit order you follow around, and which makes up your entire little "church" was founded in 1970-71. Something about people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones comes to mind.

patent

[sinkspur]

Yep. I was the guy on the right. Moved the book after the epistle, presented the wine, and rang the bells.

Our parish never sprang for lace surplices, though.

[Renatus]

It is God who calls one to serve in the sacred priesthood. If he responds to the call the grace to remain celibate is given by God. To demand the abolishment of clerical celibacy is tantamount to saying that God's grace is not sufficient for the call. Whenever one gets in a argument with God who do you think will lose. When you left the seminary to marry it either means that God never called you or if he did call you you chose not to respond. There is an old saying that goes like this: "You makes you choice; you pays you price."

[st.smith]

You must miss that dignity and grace.

As will you and your fellow schismatics soon enough. Anytime a sect attempt to seize a charism of the Church for itself it is not long before it becomes distorted. Those who sought to use the Bible as their own and not as a document of the Church distorted its meaning. Just the same in seizing upon the traditional mass which belongs to the Church it will become distorted.

[patent]

>>>>>Ah, my favorite subject, the Pope. You needn't use upper case for emphasis, I can hear you shouting. We pray for him every Sunday, on First Fridays, First Saturdays, after Benediction, during Holy Hours, during all night adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, on Holy Days of Obligation - all the time. Look around you, sinkspur, and see the devastation that has occurred in the Church during his Pontificate.

So do the liberals. You mean it the same way they do. How does this distinguish you from them?

patent

[sinkspur]

Look around you, sinkspur, and see the devastation that has occurred in the Church during his Pontificate.

I'm sure you long for the days of the old Soviet Union and the cold war.

[Orual]

Hi, patent. Nice to hear from you. You know very well that the traditional Catholic Church didn't begin 40 years ago - the new, pale imitation of the Catholic Church that has discarded all the traditions that we still hold to began then and has continued in a downward spiral ever since. St. Paul instructed us to "Domini nostri Iesu Christi; itaque fratres state et tenete traditiones quas didicistis sive per sermonem sive per epistulam nostram; ipse autem Dominus noster ... " And that's what we're doing.

[Orual]

I'm sure you long for the days of the old Soviet Union and the cold war.

Thanks for the comic relief. I guess this is what happens when you stand in swampy theological grounds, and you cannot present a cogent defense. Yes, I long for Communism and the Cold War days. You are a sketch!

[patent]

You know very well that the traditional Catholic Church didn't begin 40 years ago

You know full well you are not the full Catholic Church, even you must admit that. You and the excommunicated Bishops you follow are the Society of St. Pius the X. That began 30 years ago. It can’t even trace its lineage to the pre-Vatican II Church it claims to be, it didn’t exist before the Council.

- the new, pale imitation of the Catholic Church that has discarded all the traditions that we still hold to began then and has continued in a downward spiral ever since.

Hogwash. Many customs and disciplines have been abandoned, especially by the modernists in the West, but you blur the meaning of the word tradition from meaning something formally defined by the Church to something simply done for a long stretch (can’t say all time because even the venerable Tridentine Rite doesn’t go back to Christ or the Apostles).

St. Paul instructed us to "Domini nostri Iesu Christi; itaque fratres state et tenete traditiones quas didicistis sive per sermonem sive per epistulam nostram; ipse autem Dominus noster ... " And that's what we're doing.

You sound like a Protestant, though the rare one who speaks Latin. Who is the arbiter of what those traditions are? You? Bishop Fellay? Bishop Williamson? (I sure hope not.)

patent  +AMDG

[Orual]

Anytime a sect attempt to seize a charism of the Church for itself it is not long before it becomes distorted. Those who sought to use the Bible as their own and not as a document of the Church distorted its meaning. Just the same in seizing upon the traditional mass which belongs to the Church it will become distorted.

Sorry st., but this makes absolutely no sense to me. I have no idea what you're talking about. What does "seizing the traditional Mass which belongs to the Church" mean, exactly? The Novus Ordo discarded the traditional Mass, they Protestantized it. How can carrying on the traditional Mass which has remained the same for centuries and which several Popes in their Encyclicals forbid making any changes to, become a distortion of it? I think you need to brush up on your Church history.

[eleni121]

All he has to do is join a non celibate priesthood for example the Eastern Orthodox Church and serve Christians from that pulpit.

But stop trying to rationalize criminal behavior with the excuse of celibacy! Outrageous!

[Orual]

Who is the arbiter of what those traditions are?

Traditions are those practices which made the Roman Catholic Church immutable and unchangeable and unequivocal. No dancing in the aisles, no Communion in the hand, no guitars, no English Masses, no tables facing the congregation, no ripping out of kneelers, but instead, absolute quiet at Mass, real Confessionals, and the graceful ambience of stained glass windows, Holy Water fonts, the Blessed Sacrament displayed prominently - not hidden off in some corner of the Church, High and Low Mass accompanied by the Schola singing beautifully in Latin. And real sermons and homilies, no social-work clap-trap.

As you know, Popes in the past have forbid any changes to the Latin liturgy. What passes for a "mass" (lower case on purpose) in the Novus Ordo churches is a travesty. Just read what many of the folks here have said about it.

[Askel5]

Well for Pete's sake ... you'd BEST be perfecting your wife (and she you) as you BOTH perfect the children with which your marriage has been blessed.

Those are the heat-seeking missiles you're sending out into the world. You're primarily responsible for forming their consciences such that they're "true" ... not only hitting the target but hitting the right targets.

I just don't see how you can belittle somehow the priests (or the monk's or the nun's) similarly absolute devotion to Christ as bridegroom, the Church as mother and ALL individuals as brothers, sisters and children in Christ.

Married priests is like working mothers. I'm delighted some can appear to handle the balancing act but, given my choice, I'd rather have EITHER a mother OR a business associate rather than having some woman who's perpetually borrowing from Peter to pay Paul and vice versa.

[discostu]

People that train cops are cops, but I see what you're getting at. Yes people that know cops well, have gotten into the heads of cops can have an understanding of them well enough to give them cop related advice. But it takes time. People that have known cops for a year or two won't have developed the understanding. People that have known them for a decade or more, they've got the connection. Which is what leaves priests out in the cold. They just aren't getting the exposure to how marriages work. Part of the problem is they never get to hear about the functional marriages, only the ones on the rocks. Most of it though is time. Priests don't spend all day for 10 years hearing about people's marriage problems and how they've dealth with them. They've got other things to do, things other than marriage to advise their parishioner about.

[st.smith]

If you had a friend that was a life long bachelor, had never been in a committed relationship and professed to no urge at all to change that, and he started giving you advice about your marriage what would you think? You'd think he doesn't know what he's talking about.

If your single friend doesn't know you well enough to give you advice about your marriage then he really doesn't know you at all.

Your error is you are not recognizing that we can have communicable objective knowledge of what is subjective. For example, we can understand the death of someone's parents and offer valuable support for those grieving even if we have not personally lost our parents. It is not necessary to first go through the experience.

There is a sense in which something subjectively experienced cannot be effectively communicated, however, this is only in the case of that which is specific. Knowledge of your particular marriage cannot be had by anyone except you and your wife. However, this does not mean that one cannot have knowledge of the subjective nature of marriage- simply that they cannot have knowledge of the subjective nature of a specific marriage. This knowledge is not only innacessible to non-married persons, but to anyone except you and your wife.