What's your view on the accuracy of the Bible? - FREEP THIS POLL!!!

MSNBC.Com ^ | 12/24/2001 | MSNBC.Com

[Elsie]

But to honestly think the Bible is a literal truth, without ANY adaption, editing or other differences in translation strikes me as unrealistic.

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Perhaps your screen name will shed some light.

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Back in olden times, men were more humble. They KNEW that to add or subtract from the word was to invite disaster upon themselves.

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Revelation 22
18. I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
19. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

[Elsie]

Luke tells us that Jesus was born at the time of the census of Quirinius. This took place in 6 AD. Yet Matthew tells us that Jesus was born during the reign of King Herod, who died in 4 BC. Luke contradicts himself when he states that Jesus and John were concieved six months apart in the reign of Herod, but still portrays Mary pregnant with Jesus at the time of the census in 6 AD. Did she have a ten year pregnancy?

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No.

Just where did YOU find these dates? They sure are not in MY Bible!

[nicmarlo]

I still don't see where you guys get this stuff. My Bibles have no reference to a genealogy of Mary. Where is it?

Go to Luke 3: 23-28; the genealogy of Christ through Mary is given (also see Gen. 5:1-32; 11:10-26; Ruth 4:18-22; 1 Chron. 1:1-4, 24-27, 34; 2:1-15; and Matt. 1:2-6).

[nicmarlo]

The genealogy of Joseph is found in Matthew's gospel. Matthew's genealogy begins with Abraham and comes down to the Lord Jesus Christ through David and through Solomon. The legaltitle to the throne came through Joseph.

Luke's genealogy is different. It is given in reverse order from Matthew's. Luke goes back to David and then back to Adam. Luke gives Mary's story, and this is clearly her genealogy. The royal blood of David flowed through her veins also, and Jesus' bloodtitle to the throne of David came through her.

Two things about this genealogy should be noted. First, Dr. Luke makes it clear that Joseph was not the father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli [Luke 3:23]

The word sonas it is used in this genealogy is not in the better manuscripts. Joseph was not the son of Heli. The word son is added to indicate the lineage through the father (the man) who was the head of the house. In other words, the genealogy is listed according to the man's name. In Matthew, where it is giving the genealogy through Joseph, it states that Jacob begat Joseph.

The second important thing to notice is verse 31 which reads:

Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the sone of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David [Luke 3:31].

Matthew traces the line of Christ through David's son, Solomon. That is the royal line. Luke traces the line of Christ through David's son, Nathan. Mary had the blood of David in her veins. Jesus Christ is the Son of David.

Luke reveals Jesus Christ as the Son of Man and the Savior of the world. His line does not stop with Abraham, but goes all the way back to Adam who was the first "son" of God--the created son of God. But he fell from that lofty position when he sinned. Jesus Christ, the last Adam and the Son of God, is come to bring mankind back into that relationship with God which Adam formerly had and lost. This relationship is accomplished through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Excerpted from Thru the Bible by J. Vernon McGee.

[a contender]

. An evolving man needs G-d for: 1. The initial creation of the Universe 2. Man still dies and requires G_d for eternal life 3. Man is a child needing guidance 4. Man requires the love of a supreme being for his purpose I could come up with a host of other reasons... but I don't have the time today.

Where in the world do you get your ideas? Who is your final authority?

[RnMomof7]

BTTT

[RnMomof7]

Why would an all powerful God choose evolution instead of direct creation?

Why did Jesus come?

[RnMomof7]

Amen!

[aruanan]

This is pretty scary. 38% have essentially a medievel [sic] view of the world. No wonder the country is in such poor shape. This is the age of science, people. Get with the program. Everything good in our modern age, we owe to people using science and reason.

No, your characterization above is what is scary because you think you know what science and reason are, but actually don't, yet are completely unaware that you don't--sort of like Carl Sagan--well, before he died. And I speak as a Ph.D. in biology from the University of Chicago.

[eazdzit]

Texas Gal you asked...."And eazdzit, are you NOT trying to say Jesus is human only, and not divine?"

I am not trying to say anything. I am trying to understand what the bible says, first of all. Then I can test different doctrine against that. I am one of the unchurched because so far none of the doctrine appear to be based on what I know of the bible.

TG you also stated...."The Bible speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and I do not pretend to understand with my puny human understanding how God is one and yet God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

This is not a big hang up with me. But until I have a better understanding of what the bible says, I can't say that I believe it is biblical..

So far I have been unable to get anyone to limit their discussion to what the bible says or doesn't say. I quote a verse from the bible and everyone tells me I'm wrong, I'm a heretic, I'm apostate, I'm brain dead and so on.

Then they proceed to ignore my basic question or present me a canned response that they are usually not prepared to discuss in any detail.

TG in your case I have invited you, and RnMomof7, to proceed because your info is sourced and/or well presented and not just a rant.

TG you also stated....."If you are bothered by what you perceive as a suggestion that Christ was created, just realize that if God had wanted Jesus Christ to be both created by Him and equal with Him, that is the way it would be, because with God all things are possible. He has all power."

I really appreciate this paragraph. It shows the strength in your conviction, which allows you to be open minded and to discuss the subject.

TG you also stated...."I do not think a careful study of the scripture supports the idea that Jesus was created."

When I read Col 1:15,Rev 3:14 and Proverbs 8:22-25 I see statements that indicate he was created. As you pointed out this would change very little, with regard to the gospel of Jesus and his propitiatory sacrifice. So I want to discuss those scriptures and study them. For instance is there or is there not contention over the source greek? If not, are the translations being challenged?

TG you also stated......"But the scriptures do say Jesus was God."

Yes some fall into that category. Some that you cited are questionable(ie. John 1:1), others like Cor 15:27-28(posted below), make it look otherwise. Based on the license being taken by many organizations in the translation process all scriptures that are in contention require scrutiny. For this reason and the potential for expending fruitless effort on a forum such as this, I am proceeding at my own pace.

Thank you and Cheers:^)

KJV 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[ProudGenXLibertarian]

"There is, however, a central theme, or thread, throughout both Old and New Testaments: Looking toward a Savior for the world and Christ's deity. Everything written must be accepted by faith as the true Word of God. Just as not accepting the Bible as the true Word of God takes faith to disbelieve" Yes but you are missing a key element here. If the bible is the inspired word of God, then how come so many denominations of his living church have such different teachings?? For example, why are there so many different versions of the same book?? Why does one denomination teach that dancing is a sin while others dont?? Why do protestant ministers marry but catholic priests may not?? I mean there are some fundamental differences between denominations of the Christian religion. As an Episcopalian, We are taught that homosexuals will not go to hell, as long as they have lived good lives. We tend to have a more liberal version of christianity than most. Baptists are taught that these people are condemned the second they behave in a sexual manner with each other. They tend to have a more conservative view of christianity. Im not saying either is right nor wrong, but I think that if the Bible were literally true, there could not possibly be such differences.

[eazdzit]

Mom of 7(Hats off to ya mam)...I have had a chance to address part of your post.

T Gal this is an example of what I mean by taking license, and the need to examine all disputed translations.

From Mom's post in italics.

"In Titus 2:13, Paul speaks of believers "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." Peter opens his second epistle greeting "those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1)"

|| KJV Titus 2:13 13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; KJV 2 Peter 1:1-3 1. Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2. Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord. ||

Verse 2 here tends to support this translation in verse 1.

Just like in the discussion on col 1:15, change one word(all,of every,over) or change the position of one word and the meaning can be significantly different.

The amount of crucial changes made in denominational translations in the version of the bible that they use, have made it a major undertaking to get at the truth.

This is why I want to take it a verse at a time.

Mom did you see my question at post # 261 ? Do you agree with M Henry's contention re Proverbs 12-21 referring to Jesus?

Cheers:^)

[ProudGenXLibertarian]

The problem with your argument is that the Bible over the years has been used to justify some pretty horrific things. The Spanish Inquisition, Slavery, Segregation, Anti-Immigrant movements etc etc etc....In fact the KKK quoted the Bible often during its meetings, and you have a whole white racist movement called "Christian" Identity based solely on the fact that these individuals, will quote from the Bible saying it states in there that seperation of the races is a good thing. Would Jesus look in a favorable light on televangelists? Or would he stand shoulder to shoulder with the "Rev" Fred Phelps and his Kansas congregation who picket outside funerals of AIDS patients?? That is where my curiosity lies, whos truth is it? Is it Fred Phelps truth? Martin Luther King's truth?? Bill Clinton's truth?? How can so many people garner so many different conclusions from the same book, if it is the LITERAL truth, There should be no wiggle room there and why so many versions of the same Bible??

[Elsie]

You've pointed out godd stuff here!

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Why does one denomination teach that dancing is a sin while others dont?? Why do protestant ministers marry but catholic priests may not?? I mean there are some fundamental differences between denominations of the Christian religion. As an Episcopalian, We are taught that homosexuals will not go to hell, as long as they have lived good lives. We tend to have a more liberal version of christianity than most. Baptists are taught that these people are condemned the second they behave in a sexual manner with each other.

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You've already noticed the problem!

Remember that Jesus had a LOT of problems with 'Teachers of the Law'. They had NO translation problem to deal with and STILL didn't get it right. We (various denominations) get on a certain hobby horse and ride it to death, then keep dragging it along behind us, thinking that it is still functioning.

The problem all along is our 'sin nature', it wants to do the things IT wants to do, not the things of God.

You have a Bible, any ol' version you want, and everyone of them contains enough 'correct' info to get you to Heaven.

We are like little brained truck drivers that have the picture of Calvin in the rear window, whizzing on Ford or Chevy or Honda - pick one. They ALL will get you from point A to point B.

YOU read your Bible and ask GOD to help YOU understand it. Don't "trust" any 'version': lay 6 or seven out on your desk if you wish to cross check between them as you study. The AMPLIFIED has gobs of 'expanders' right in it. Its own built-in thesaurus almost.

Remember, Jesus said:

 

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.'  Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

........ NOT by men.

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Just WHY did King James 'authorize' the Bible anyway?

To get it INTO the hands of the people and not to have them relying on what the 'leaders' of the churches were telling them.

Just like the letters that Paul wrote to the early churches, to AVOID getting back into the same old trap, we are to lead CHANGED lives after we believe. What you so correctly point out in your post is the cart leading the horse, in many cases. We do not DO the things TO believe, but because we DO believe. Here's an example from Ephesians...

 Ephesians 1:15-18
 15.  For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,
 16.  I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers.
 17.  I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit  of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
 18.  I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints..........

These folks BELIEVE, and they LOVE, but there is still MORE than Paul wants them to have.

Then, jumping ahead (you go look yourself to see what I've skipped ;^) Paul gives instructions on how believers should live, encouragingly so.

Ephesians 4:17-32
17.  So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.
 18.  They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
 19.  Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
 20.  You, however, did not come to know Christ that way.
 21.  Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus.
 22.  You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
 23.  to be made new in the attitude of your minds;
 24.  and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
 25.  Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
 26.  "In your anger do not sin" : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,
 27.  and do not give the devil a foothold.
 28.  He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
 29.  Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
 30.  And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
 31.  Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.
 32.  Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

 

NIV Ephesians 5:1-20
 1.  Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children
 2.  and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
 3.  But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
 4.  Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
 5.  For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
 6.  Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
 7.  Therefore do not be partners with them.
 8.  For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
 9.  (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth)
 10.  and find out what pleases the Lord.
 11.  Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
 12.  For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
 13.  But everything exposed by the light becomes visible,
 14.  for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."
 15.  Be very careful, then, how you live--not as unwise but as wise,
 16.  making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil.
 17.  Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.
 18.  Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.
 19.  Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
 20.  always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Elsie]

My apologies. I was a bit haughty in my reply to you about the 'date' problem. I had no clue even to it's existance.

It was only AFTER I posted that I thought to check for myself. So, after typing in Quiriuns for GOOGLE to search, tons of info appeared and I WILL be going thru it today.

Thank you for teaching me something. I hope the LESSON will be retained: for me to find out where the other guy is coming from BEFORE I get into a big hurry to show off what I (think) I know.

[Elsie]

Excuse me for butting in...........

When I read Col 1:15,Rev 3:14 and Proverbs 8:22-25 I see statements that indicate he was created. As you pointed out this would change very little, with regard to the gospel of Jesus and his propitiatory sacrifice.

I think that it would change a lot!

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If he was CREATED, then GOD would have had to DO the creating, therefore he could not BE God. If he is NOT God, then he is just a man. A good man perhaps, a wise man, a man blessed by GOD, but, in all, still a man. Surely no angel, either.

 Hebrews 1:4-6
 4.  So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
 5.  For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father " ? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son" ?
 6.  And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

[StayoutdaBushesWay]

FReeped and bumped--how sad the results are ;(

[ProudGenXLibertarian]

Thanks for the Information, I will use it. But Im still a little confused on the teaching of churches.

[RnMomof7]

I do not know how long I will stay on this thread but I would like to tell you something.

I was raised a Catholic. there was a time when I had become an agnostic almost athestist. I hit bottom spiritually..there was no place else to go.

My husband asked me to go on a retreat..I went and I spent the first 2 days taking notes about the people and the presentation of the info..nothing of God.

Something happened on the 3rd day..all of a sudden I was aware of God..I can not put it into words,as it was a spiritual awaking..a kind of quicking but for the first time I understood that God was real and that He loved me. My existance was no accident.

That is how I returned home.I still did not know what it all meant.

I started to read the Bible for the first time in my life.I wanted to know this God that I had met personally.One day a couple weeks later ..after reading and praying to understand Him and what this meant..I asked in a still small voice..."Father who is Jesus? Is He God or is He the son of God ?

God is faithful to those that are His.....because suddenly I knew I understood He was God and that He had been born and lived and died for ME !! .I saw my sin and I knew that He had suffered and died for me..He was my God,my Savior and my Lord. I fell to my knees in repentence and thanksgiving.I gave Him my life such as it is....

There is a song that asks "how can it be that oh my God would die for me?" That song sill brings tears to my eyes 25 years later.

You are asking us to prove something to you that only God can make live in your heart. Great minds and spiritual giants of the faith have read the same words you read and they have sought the face of God..may I lovingly suggest that you spend your time on your knees asking God to show you who Jesus is ? Bcause if He does not reveal it to you there is nothing we can say!