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Patali: Pilot of AA flight dumped fuel prior to crash, in (likely) response to mechanical failures
Gov. Pataki | 11/12/01 | WABC Radio

Posted on 11/12/2001 12:18:32 PM PST by Steven W.

Gov. Pataki is reporting that the pilot of the ill-fated American Airlines flight dumped most of the airplane's fuel over Jamaica Bay, anticipating a crash landing and most likely indicating a trained response to onboard mechanical failures.


TOPICS: Breaking News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aaflight587; flight587
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To: alethia
You said:"Being part of the debris didn't seem to bother the hijacking terrorists on 9/11. Could have been a "lucky" shot that allowed with plane to get into the air. Otherwise -- do you really think the sniper would have cared??"

Geez, let's see, a guy wants to take down an airplane. So he goes to a gun store, buys a $4000 firearm, or has one smuggled in at even greater cost, 'cause we all know the Brady Laws wouldn't have allowed him to get one. Then he goes to the end of the runway at JFK, avoiding being seen the whole time, and takes what has GOT to be the luckiest shot in the world. Yep, that's JUST what happened. And he's disappointed because he didn't get his 72 virgins.

Besides, Alethia, if you had read earlier posts, you would see that the part of being the debris field was NOT the gist of the post. You must read in context. What I was stating was that if you were to make the shot, the engine would have exploded rather quickly, and would have ended up at the end of the runway somewhere. If you have a problem with this, I'll give you the same assignment that I gave Travis; contact an engineer and see if they can illustrate the part of the engine that would have been hit that would cause catastrophic failure four minutes later.

301 posted on 11/12/2001 5:53:12 PM PST by TheRealLobo
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To: Crimson
The A-300 has no capability to dump fuel.

To avoid confusion with other threads: Yes, this Airbus A300-605 has no capability to dump fuel. Some other, earlier variants of the A300 DO have the ability to dump fuel. (A300-B2's and A300-B4's) I am not being contrary, I just want to try to end some of the confusion.

302 posted on 11/12/2001 6:38:52 PM PST by Fixit
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To: Steven W.
This particular model of A-300 has no system for airborne release of usable fuel per a 30+ year airline captain interviewed tonight on MSNBC.
303 posted on 11/12/2001 6:48:27 PM PST by KeyLargo
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To: Steven W.
I am late to this thread, but it would seem to me if the pilot dumped the fuel he would have also alerted the airport officials to his actions. I don't think you just go about dumping fuel without making a mayday call.
304 posted on 11/12/2001 6:53:25 PM PST by MistyCA
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To: TheRealLobo
The delay was 74 minutes.
305 posted on 11/12/2001 7:13:52 PM PST by bootless
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Comment #306 Removed by Moderator

To: FITZ
I wonder if they've accounted for all the maintenance workers especially the Muslim ones, or if there were any "new" guys working who didn't show back up to work today.

That's who they are focusing on. And anyone who came within eyeshot of that jet in the last 24 hours. You betcha.

307 posted on 11/12/2001 7:22:01 PM PST by VA Advogado
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To: blam
The fact that this plane was bound for the DomRep falls in line with an end of runway sniper scenario. The hypothetical sniper, acting on his own, would only see "American Airlines" as the jet turned into position for take off. He would not know where it was bound.

The sniper would want a large two engine jet to maximize the odds of a crash: a 4 engine 747 would be less likely to crash after losing one engine on takeoff.

308 posted on 11/12/2001 7:30:36 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: right_to_defend
Well, I think the "traumatized" comment was out of line, but lay eyewitnesses to aircraft accidents are notoriously inaccurate about what, and when, they observe.

That being said, the nature of jet engines is basically a series of highly pressurized, compressed, and explosive cycles (or, as it's more crudely put, "bang, suck and blow."). The orange flash would *not* be limited to a bomb. It takes focus and knowledge to mentally process and interpret what you see when seeing an accident unfold ... the lag in mental reaction time is part of that process.

309 posted on 11/12/2001 7:32:18 PM PST by bootless
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To: Smogger
The rudder was left on the runway? That would not say bomb to me because bomb would cause more destruction to the tail section, imo. However it says a lot about the potential for sabotage. It also brings to mind the possibility of metal fatigue (bolts broke?). The plane would not be controllable (I would think) without the rudder, but that certainly does not explain the loss of an engine and subsequent events. It would not explain the shearing off of the stabilizer. There is something else at play here. The idea that a wing flew off and hit the stabilizer doesn't fit either because I would think that under that scenario there would have been more damage to the stabilizer. And a bomb? That doesn't make sense to me either. The only thing that really makes sense to me is that the bolts were tampered with. But then...I know nothing about planes :(
310 posted on 11/12/2001 7:38:44 PM PST by MistyCA
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To: TheRealLobo
"WHAT PART OF THE ENGINE BEING HIT WOULD CAUSE IT TO TAKE FOUR MINUTES TO FAIL?"

Who said it took four minutes to fail, and the failure happened in one second after four minutes? The (hypothetical) shot into the engine on take off could hit a secondary system which leads to a chain reaction.

I am only positing a hypothesis which has not been mentioned, but which is realistic, hard to prevent, and which could happen tomorrow even if it didn't today.

An arab moslem jihadist jet sniper is not going to care if the jet kills him on crashing, in fact he would welcome his chance to collect his 72 virgins sooner rather than later.

311 posted on 11/12/2001 7:39:32 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: Smogger
The vertical stabilizer looks pristine in the photos. If the rudder was still on the runway, and the rest of the tail was undamaged, that *doesn't* say bomb to me. It says mechanical screwup. I don't know the mechanism of how the rudder is attached to the rest of the vertical stab, but someone either screwed up bigtime, or there is a mole in the MX crew.
312 posted on 11/12/2001 7:45:04 PM PST by bootless
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To: VA Advogado
Just had a sickening thought. What about a mechanic or other ground crew who had a grudge after being laid off?
313 posted on 11/12/2001 7:50:44 PM PST by bootless
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To: DainBramage
"He had just taken off, hardly enough time. Pitaki doesn't know."...............It seems that you are right, why would a pilot dump fuel during an engine being blown of the aircraft? This is all beginning to sound pretty fishy....again? It won't be long before the truth comes out if it was another terrorist attack from the Islamic world.

some large rapidly generated force was necessary to detach that jet engine and break the plane into pieces. see www.Debka.com for a physical description of events which sound much more like a bombing than the damage which would result from a dislodged jet rotor.

314 posted on 11/12/2001 7:53:48 PM PST by God_isa_Jew
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To: TheRealLobo; harpseal; Squantos; blam; pocat; PatrioticAmerican; patton
Who even said it had to be a $4000 Barrett? That's just one rifle which could do it. And there are much cheaper single shot .50s out there. And seriously, do you think an arab moslem terrorist would have any trouble getting any rifle from an American arab sympathizer? Puh-lease. Getting a rifle would be the easiest part of the operation. Criminals do it every day, using friends and girlfriends.

As far as it taking a lucky shot, you must not shoot rifles much. A 12' diameter engine getting bigger and bigger in your scope as the jet rushed straight toward you down the runway would not present any difficulty. None at all, the shot could be made 10 out of 10 times.

If the "4 minute delay" (?) bothers you so much, (why?) why do you assume a bullet through an engine cannot cause a chain reaction, snipping a fuel line for example, which leads to a fire after a short delay?

As far as MY contacting an engineer etc bla bla bla, sorry, that's not how it works. I postit a hypothesis, YOU need to shoot it down and disprove it. You haven't come close.

I would envision the (hypothetical) runway sniper using a van soundproofed on the inside with cheap foam mattresses. The exact shooting position would be determined in advance so that a shooting chair and rifle rest could be set up inside the van in advance. The shot could be taken through a removed small rear door window. The shooter would drive to his pre-determined road side parking place, get in the chair, and use his 12 or 20 power off-the-shelf scope to observe the jets as they turned into the take off position. Seeing the big twin engine jet with the American Airlines logo, he would have plenty of time to settle in for his one and only shot.

As the jet races down the runway, he holds his crosshairs just above the center of the 12' engine. As the wheels come off the tarmac, he fires.

Even a .30 caliber slug through the engine turbines could cause the massive failure he seeks: even after 1, 2, 3 or 4 or 10 minutes. What does he care?

If the jet lands right on him, he screams "Allah Akbar" with a big grin on his face, and goes to collect his 72 virgins right away.

If the jet crashes beyond him or not at all, he gets back into his driver's seat, and checks his map for the route to Miami International, O'hare, Logan, or Dulles.

*******************************

So why do I go to the trouble of pitching this hypothesis? Because even if there was no sniper at the end of the runway at JFK today, there might be next week. The national guardsmen standing around looking scary in the terminals doing nothing but providing pseudo-security PR, should instead be patrolling the airport runway approaches with their M-16A2s, looking for my hypothetical but entirely possible (even likely) snipers.

What are they doing in the terminals anyway? Looking for hidden boxcutters with their X-ray eyes?

315 posted on 11/12/2001 8:12:12 PM PST by Travis McGee
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To: EggsAckley
6. There is no doubt that many in the ground crew/mechanics/baggage handlers/plane cleaners etc. are likely to be middle eastern, and have excellent opportunities to sabotage any plane they like.

This was my first thought when I heard that an engine had fallen off. My sick mind then went on to it being open season on these people and was promptly slapped on the knunkles for even thinking this was anything but an accident by my fellow co-workers who have flight plans over the holidays. I would really like to see who had access to this plane before it took off.

316 posted on 11/12/2001 8:15:29 PM PST by boxerblues
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To: Travis McGee
"The national guardsmen standing around looking scary in the terminals doing nothing but providing pseudo-security PR, should instead be patrolling the airport runway approaches with their M-16A2s, looking for my hypothetical but entirely possible (even likely) snipers."

The only way to defend against this action is to get these people out of this country and keep them out. Even NG patrols can not prevent this action.

317 posted on 11/12/2001 8:21:56 PM PST by blam
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To: boxerblues
Your co-workers should still be concerned. If this was "an accident" then something is still really wrong when engines fall off planes. Neither is reassuring.
318 posted on 11/12/2001 8:31:12 PM PST by CindyDawg
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To: CindyDawg
Your co-workers should still be concerned. If this was "an accident" then something is still really wrong when engines fall off planes.

In some ways it would be better if it was terrorists rather than delapitated planes that some are suggesting. At least terrorism could be prevented, but planes ready to fall apart can't be fixed.

319 posted on 11/12/2001 8:34:36 PM PST by FITZ
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To: bootless
Just had a sickening thought. What about a mechanic or other ground crew who had a grudge after being laid off?

I think like most places, once you're out, you're out. Hard to picture them letting someone back near one of those airplanes after that.

320 posted on 11/12/2001 8:44:54 PM PST by VA Advogado
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