Pilots threaten to stop service if kept unarmed

Union Leader ^ | 10/05/01 | KATHRYN MARCHOCKI

[kattracks]

Commercial airline pilots will be asked to suspend air service if they cannot have trained, armed pilots in the cockpits, a New Hampshire pilot said.

A resolution that will be circulated among the various councils of the 67,000-member Air Line Pilots Association this month asks federal regulations be changed to allow for the voluntary arming of flight crew members, Robert Giuda, a United Airlines captain of Warren said.

“Had we had armed pilots on Sept. 11, we wouldn’t have the horrific tragedy that we’re dealing with at this point,” Giuda said of the four hijacked jetliners.

Pilots would first get training in firearms by the FBI and would use their weapons only to defend against an attempted breach of the cockpit, the resolution said.

The resolution also calls for federal licensing of pilots to carry concealed weapons and for the government to indemnify air carriers and their employees against the legitimate use of a firearm.

If those steps are not carried out, the resolution calls for “a national suspension of air service, at such times and in such manner as is deemed appropriate by the leadership of the Air Line Pilots Association.”

“We’re hearing members of Congress say they don’t want a bunch of armed hooligans running around,” said Giuda, a New Hampshire state representative.

He said there was “no more professionalized, highly-scrutinized group of people in the world than airline pilots.”

The security of the flight deck cannot depend solely on armed sky marshals, he said.

Sky marshals can be picked out of a crowd and, if overpowered, would provide a hijacker with a weapon, Giuda said.

“It’s time to throw the gauntlet to the mat. We are going to get politicized into unarmed cockpits and then we’ll get shot with the guns the marshals used because they will be taken away from them,” he added.

Arming pilots introduces the element of “risk, fear and doubt” into the mind of a potential hijacker, he said.

[NittanyLion]

No, I am saying that on an airplane, the good guys had BETTER know what they are doing with firearms, and that means I demand a much higher standard of competence than you do--apparently, you just figure that granny getting wasted by a poorly aimed or completely unaimed panic fire round is "acceptable breakage." I don't.

The issue was people arriving at a gunfight that St. James Beck the Immolated, Martyr to the Sacred Cause of Libertarianism, terrorists had INITIATED, and the fact that I blamed St. James Beck terrorists for the ensuing mess, whereas you somehow expected people to have perfect situational awareness on arrival into the middle of a firefight from ELSEWHERE aka The Cabin.

Poohbah, the only difference is that government agents play different roles in each situation, and therefore you must rationalize each differently. By the way, I know libertarians are the bogeyman you look for behind every disagreement, but I should inform you that I'm not one.

[Yougottabekidding]

Well said!

[ChemistCat]

Reasoned debate is often lost on me these days. I'm not always thinking with my head. I am often thinking with my maternal instincts and a whole host of brand new, often irrational fears.

I don't think, however, that I'm wrong in this case. If we were looking at daily, nonstop, fulltime shootouts in the cockpit we would not be in the air at all anyway. We're looking at the case where having an armed marshall and riled passengers hasn't been enough, and the rare terrorist gets through the newly reinforced cockpit doors (or was maybe in there as copilot to begin with) and there's just ONE MORE CHANCE to save perhaps thousands of people. Most commercial pilots have military training and have above-average reflexes, intelligence, and savvy. They keep cool in crisis and they're trained to respond to a wider variety of problems than most of us can imagine. (How many things can go wrong on an aircraft?) I'll bet that an armed pilot has a pretty damn good chance of saving the situation. He'd have that autopilot on at the first sign of trouble and be ready to roll. I am frankly DISGUSTED by this infernal PESSIMISM that has infected this country. If my kid gets lost in the store, she is instructed to find a WOMAN who LOOKS LIKE SHE WORKS FOR A STORE or a SECURITY GUARD, and NOT TO LEAVE THE STORE WITH ANYONE. These precautions aren't absolute. A woman can be a kidnapper. A security guard can be a molestor. I give her instructions that I think will increase her already pretty-good odds of finding someone she CAN trust. I think that we can trust commercial pilots on the same basis. You're giving them full control of something already proven incredibly deadly--a plane loaded with fuel. What the H*LL is the problem with trusting their judgment with a little ol' handgun???????

[killroy]

In the mid 1800s no one would have boarded a Stagecoach with a pilot and co-pilot that were not carrying shotguns.

[Chewbacca]

Flight Attendent Over Intercom: "Welcome to Fully Armed Airlines. The only airline where the pilots, flght attendants and passengers are armed all the time."

"For personal safety before takeoff, we ask that all passengers check their firearms and make sure the safety is on."

"If you do not have a firearm, one will be provided for you if you so request."

"If you look in the pocket on the chair in front of you, you will see are newest catalog."
"Page three has a nice selection of obsolete ammunition for those old antique firearms you may have. This months spectial are .45-70 blackpowder cartriges for the old US Trapdoor carbine rifle."

Tonights supper will be a choice of wild pheasant in a butter and garlic sauce, lemon pepper baked seabass, or for our vegitarians a nice country salad with steamed broccoli."

"Should anyone accidentally discharge a weapon on board, you won't have to worry about decompression as our planes fly unpressurized and at low altitude. You will however be responsible for paying for the aircraft repairs."

[ArGee]

If I had a life and death issue at my workplace, I think I'd want a say in its resolution as well.

I can't remember all the details, but there was a story recently about a day trader who went berserk and shot up two brokerage offices. Whas that in NYC? Anyway, the story was that he walked right by the recptionist in the first office. She who was able to hide under her desk and survived while he went on to shoot up another office. How many died? Seven in two offices?

Now, imagine if she had had a gun in her desk and was trained to use it.

I'd hate to return to the "Wild West" (which I believe never existed) but without moral restraints in the populace there will never be enough police to protect my family. When they fail, the job is mine. How much more so if I am charged with the welfare of others like a pilot is.

I'm with the pilots. I also might like any citizen with a license to carry to be packing on the plane. Why shouldn't potential terrorists be afraid of an armed army being on the plane?

Shalom.

[Protagoras]

Great screenname.

[major-pelham]

Old friend, the last sanction they should suffer is firing. For once a collective bargaining organization pursues an initiative that inures to someone else's benefit, at last someone uses their power to stop the federal government from a power grab that neither creates additional security or addresses the problems that became apparent on September 11th. Bravo to the airline pilots, bravo.

[ArGee]

Surely we can come up with sensors that when set off automatically seek out and find someone using violence - and somehow visitng that someone with some kind of high voltage shock or perhaps very high pitched sound - or both.

It's cald Gort, and I don't think it's been invented yet. And imagine if it ever mistakes someone who just has to go really bad with someone who is violent. Yuckk!

Klattu barata nicto!

Shalom.

[bvw]

You can't secure the cockpit completely -- the crew can be tricked or blackmailed into coming out of the cockpit.

[editor-surveyor]

Sounds good to me, why did they wait this long?

[editor-surveyor]

"Who elected them to make these policy decisions?"

The passengers did, by about a 15 to 1 margin.

I've flown four times since the Sept. 11 total failure of all government policies concerning Airline security, and it has been the overwhelming consensus of the people that we have spoken to both on the ground, and in the air, that all pilots should be armed.

[editor-surveyor]

"We are going to get politicized into unarmed cockpits and then we’ll get shot with the guns the marshals used because they will be taken away from them,” he added."

This is the most cogent statement that I have yet encountered on the subject.

[Melinator]

Even maximum security prisons cannot be made physically secure. Escapes are evidence of that. If that level of security is not enough to keep inmates in, then it is not enough to keep hijackers out of the cockpit. Pilots need guns. Prove you have an unarmed method of making the cockpit totally secure so that guns would never under any circumstance be needed and I'll agree that your type should be allowed to restrict the pilots rights to use pistols as a defence.

In fact, what an absolutely stupid position for you to take. You would deny pilots and their passengers the most effective means of protecting their lives as a last line of defense, because it makes you theoretically uncomfortable. If you were a pilot, and hijackers had just breached your "reinforced" and "locked" bulkhead door, would you want a gun, or are you afraid the temptation to kill your flight crew would be too much to handle?

[editor-surveyor]

" I certainly hope and expect armed pilots to be at least 500% more responsible than government thugs."

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[editor-surveyor]

"When are they going to stop allowing "pilots" from other airlines to hitch a ride in the cockpit? (Often in stolen uniforms with false licenses)"

What are you smoking? - - I doubt that has ever happened.

[kattracks]

I doubt that has ever happened.

There were reports that this may have happened during the 9/11 hijackings.

The investigations found that uniforms and IDs had been stolen.

[bvw]

Long term, the sky marshals are going to have problems ... the job is incredibly boring, monotonous, and is not a job that developes a person. It is the epitome of a job that will wear a person down, that will become full of worthless featherbeders.

Short term of course ... it looks grand ... you should see all the gung-hoo men at the FAA signing up.

This is one case where long-term only some version of the militia -- the armed crew -- is going to work. The sooner we get to that acknowledgement the better for us all -- the less aggravation, pain and expense we will bear.