The Towers have Fallen and We Missed the Message

Koenig's International News ^ | 9-19-01 | Pastor David Wilkerson

[RnMomof7]

As a prophet you should have known that my answer is HERE

Now after you have joined in condeming me to hell...what does being a prophet mean to you? If you can not error that means you speak for God..how does that express itself

[RnMomof7]

No peg you did not answer these questions found HERE

if we are to take your word as coming from God we need to know that indeed you are sent of God..

[RnMomof7]

What I would say to you is this. You spend way too much time over here when it would be better spent studying the Word of God and by that I mean the Old as well as the New Testament. Thank you for the birthday wishes. I love you, God bless you, and God bless America! Amen

peg..those indeed are prophetic words...way too much time!

[eccl1212]

Not to get too far off topic, but obviously you have never heard of the National Council of Churches. Cordially,

well said... roflmao

[Stingray]

Just wanted to let you know that I am reading and considering your words, but I have been too busy to respond to all you wrote.

For now let me just say that I think there is some degree of misunderstanding between us, but as to the specifics, I'll have to get back to them at a later time. As this thread has gotten somewhat unwieldy, I'll reply to you in Freepmail when I get the chance.

Thank you for your thoughful and courteous reply.

Later...

[nmh]

Thanks for your reply. We can take it to e-mail.

Understand though, like any other issue, our prayers are not always answered according to our will but rather His will. All we can do is try ... .

[nmh]

Hope your intentions were honest. I was unkind, so I apologize. Do yourself a favor, don't rely on others. Read it yourself then you will be able to more clearly see who is a for real and who is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Take care and "keep looking up."

[Stingray]

"I hope you tell me I misunderstood you."

I will, and I will use this post to respond briefly about just one issue you raised.

You wrote:

"Another statement that bothered me was something like praying doesn't matter. It does matter! We should pray because God uses prayer to accomplish His ends just as God uses preaching to accomplish them. Prayer is not a means by which we change God. It is a means by which He changes us. It is a privilege to be used by God in any way He desires."

in response to what I had written above.

"In other words, those who believe in Christ are no longer under God's judgement, and those who do not believe have already been judged. No amount of prayer by believers or non-believers will change what God has already done through Christ."

The misunderstanding here lies in that I was refering to II Chronicles 7 (the passage under discussion) when I wrote:

"No amount of prayer by believers or non-believers will change what God has already done through Christ."

Remember the context of that verse? The Lord saying He would hear the Jews' prayers in that place (Solomon's temple) would heal their land? And what was to accompany their prayers? Animal sacrifice. ("I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for myself as a temple for sacrifices.")

The point I was trying to make, which I did not communicate well at all, was that in the context of this verse, the people would not only offer prayers but sacrifices to God. Christians do not practice the ritual of slaughtering animals as part of their prayers of atonement (to which is what this passage is refering). Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover the sins of the believer, and to judge the disbelief of the unbeliver. Nothing - not even prayer - can add to the salvation of a believer (one who is saved) or the judgement of a diisbeliever (one whom John calls already judged by their disbelief.)

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

John 3:16-18

Regarding prayer: yes, I believe it is a critically vital component of a believer's spiritual walk, and it is the means by which an unbeliever may open a dialogue with God for salvation.

My remarks were not about "prayer" per se, but about prayer in a given place (Solomon's Temple) under given conditions (at such time as the people were being judged by God) and given certain additional requirements (in conjunction with animal sacrifice) none of which apply to believers or disbelievers in 21st century America.

And again, I must reiterate my original point: if Christians are going to appropriate the promise of II Chronicles 7:14 for themselves, then they had better appropriate the conditions under which this promise was made:

• they had better be under God's judgement;
• they had better offer their prayers mixed with the blood of bulls and lambs; and
• they had better offer these prayers in Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem.

otherwise God is not bound to honor the promise of II Chronicles 7:14.

If following an O.T. pattern of prayer - as outlined in II Chronicles - is the only way to get God's attention, then we are in serious trouble, since we cannot nor do we offer prayers in this manner in this day and age. Therefore, either God has provided a new way by which to approach the throne of grace, or God simply does not hear our prayers, as they cannot be offered as prescribed in II Chronicles (and many other O.T. passages.)

Thankfully, God has provided a new way:

"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin.

"Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."

Hebrews 4:14-16

We may approach the throne of grace boldly, for any reason now thanks to Christ, who is our intercessor. Why do we need to follow an O.T. program of prayer when the "New" one is meant for us?

Remember Christ's parable of "new wine in old wineskins?"

That's all I'm talking about.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding on this point.

Later...

[nmh]

"Your empty threats mean nothing to me...If you care to make a career out of following my post, I am honored.."

Hope, I made no threats. I was poking fun at you. I barely have time to participate here so rest assured that I won't be following you around. You're important but let's not take it to an extreme.

Calm down ... Just read His word and you'll know te score.

[nmh]

"Babylon's out on the Island, isn/t it? "

:)

Yes and in the Middle East. Hmmm ... :) and quite a few cities worldwide are named Babylon. Amazing how imaginations can run amuck.

[Stingray]

One more quick point:

When you raise the question as to why God would deal with us differently now as opposed to the Jews in the past (in the context of II Chronicles, again) remember what was written there: "When I (meaning God) cause plagues and etc.."

If neither of us believe that God caused the WTC to be destroyed and thousands of people to be killed, then appropriating II Chronicles 7:14 makes even less sense in the context of this tragedy.

I guess how one approaches praying about this act of war depends on whether one truly believes God caused this.

I, for one, do not.

Later...

[Independent Lady]

Thank you for clarifying who David Wilkerson is and more of his background. I read his book "The Cross & The Switchblade" (regarding the drug treatment center, God, etc.) many years ago. From reading the book, I was quite impressed with him as being not only a Christian but a very concerned, caring individual.

[Woodkirk]

Isn't there a borough in New York called Babylon?

[Woodkirk]

Joel 2:30-31 reads: "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come". Peter in quoting Joel in the Book of Acts called them vapors of smoke. In one hour those pillars of smoke that once were the centers of international trade and commerce were reduced to vapours of smoke to the utter astonishment of the whole world. Pillars of smoke would precede the day of judgment.. What few people who studied their history remember is that Mohammed was known as "the scourge" of God and his Allah was the god of judgment without mercy. Islam rose to power where Christianity once flourished. Our shields are down and we are vulnerable as never before, and those who should know better didn't get it. The success of this attack on the WTC is being interpreted as a signal to Islam that "God wills the destruction of America". If in fact this was a message for a nation that has turned its back on the God who shed his grace upon it, are we now going to attack the messengers? If this was a message from the God of our fathers and we ignore it, are we going to war without Him?. We are facing an enemy bent upon giving us what they feel we deserve -- judgment not grace and not mercy. The only question: if we miss this message, are other pillars of smoke on the horizon -- mushroom clouds and smoldering cities. "Allah" was the word for "an uprising, the rising of smoke from a sacrifice". We are at a crossroad and instead of the mantra America United" it should be "America Repentant" before we start seeing Allah rise up across our land.

[Woodkirk]

Isn't Babylon part of the city of New York, the part that you see as you enter the harbor?

[Woodkirk]

Now you know how Isaiah felt. Don't lose hope. David W was right on.

[ladyinred]

I had the privilege of meeting Dave years ago, in fact it was 1968 at the Bible College I attended. I also read his books and his biography. He came to the college with Nicky Cruz, one of the street gang members who was converted in the beginning of his ministry. You can read his story in The Cross and the Switchblade.
The reason they came here was one of the other converts from the streets of New York attended the college with me. He has done a fabulous job with the gangs in New York, and I have the upmost respect for him.

[American in Israel]

So quick to revel in the luxury of a Christian Nation yet reject the Father of it, it is shocking how quick they turn to attacking the foundation of that blessing God’s people. Do you not realize that the wealth, peace and joy of America was created by the Christians that founded this Great Nation. Using your ‘freedom’ you forced pornography, homosexuality, and child sacrifice to your god of the self down this nations throat and now when the fruits have become ripe you do not repent of your deeds, but attack the only sane voices out there.

Funny, if this is indeed the end times, who else could Babylon be? Would the worlds merchants sit offshore of Iraq moaning that the wonderful city of gold and jewels is gone, where will they make money now? Hint for all you "quick to point at the map and laugh types", Ancient Babylon is landlocked. This Babylon of the end days is a port city. But fear not, Babylon has not yet fallen, console your souls with pride and wrath, for your destruction is yet to come. Bye the way, why is the Babylonian Goddess sitting in the harbor with the rays of light from her crown and her torch held high? Is it your God LIBERTY you worship, or are you a slave to Christ? 40,000,000 children have been sacrificed in the name of LIBERTY. The ground is soaked in the blood of the innocent.

But the mockers mock, and the hard necked rage that the word of God is foolishness. The 7 years of tribulation has begun, and as prophesied, the blind and sleeping do not see, as in the days of Noah, they mock, rage and do not learn to swim. You never understood that the luxury and peace was by the Grace of God, and now when the Grace is removed, and your covering gone you still do not understand.

I say your teachings of the temple of wall street "buy low, sell high" are foolishness in the eyes of God. He would tell you to sell low, buy high. This is an example of the foolishness of man vs the foolishness of God.

[Stingray]

"Do you not realize that the wealth, peace and joy of America was created by the Christians that founded this Great Nation."

Yes.

"Using your ‘freedom’ you forced pornography, homosexuality, and child sacrifice to your god of the self down this nations throat and now when the fruits have become ripe you do not repent of your deeds, but attack the only sane voices out there."

Let me assure you, I have no doubt that America will be judged for all of the sins you mentioned, and more. Its seems clear to me, however, that what happened on 9/11/01 was not an act of God, but an act of despicable evil. I have no doubt that God-fearing, born-again, spirit-filled Christians were killed in the attack that levelled the WTC. Are you suggesting that people such as those were saved - by God - only to eventually pay for the sins of America?

Is this your idea of God's justice as pictured in the New Testament?

Is your idea of justice that a loving and just God would require the blood of those who believe in Him to satisfy His wrath against this nation?

Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?" He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

Genesis 18:23, 32

God would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah for the sake of just ten righteous men living there, and yet you believe that this same God would kill possibly dozens of His own children to satisfy His wrath against the wickedness of this nation?

"Funny, if this is indeed the end times, who else could Babylon be? Hint for all you "quick to point at the map and laugh types", Ancient Babylon is landlocked. This Babylon of the end days is a port city. But fear not, Babylon has not yet fallen, console your souls with pride and wrath, for your destruction is yet to come."

Look, I don't have the time or patience to engage in apocalyptic eschatalogy right now, but since you allege that the apocalypse has begun ("if this is indeed the end times"), could you please point to the manner in which this passage about "Babylon" (New York City) has been fulfilled?

Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.

The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.

This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns.

The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.

They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.

The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

"The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

Revelation 17: 3-11, 18

If these are the "end times," as you allege, and Babylon the Great has now fallen, could you please point me to the number of saints (those who have died for the testimony of Christ) New Yorkers have persecuted and killed to bring God's judgement down on them like this, in such a haphazard, incomplete way? Look at Revelation 18 to see how God's Judgement against the sin of Babylon will proceed, and note the following:

"Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes."

Revelation 18: 4-5

Please tell me about the exodus of Christians and Jews who fled New York just prior to God dropping those planes on those buildings!

The idea that God destroyed the WTC as a sign of His judgement against sin in the fulfillment of Revealtion would be blasphemous were it not so laughable.

The destruction of the World Trade Center in New York was an act of war, not God acting out the apocalypse. As you can see in the Revelation, God will be more thorough in executing judgement than simply tearing down a couple of big buildings. Not only that, but when "Babylon" finally falls, it won't get back up. Last I checked, trade on Wall Street was proceeding - as usual.

People need to stop quoting the Bible out of context, and more importantly, they need to stop viewing all the evil that happens in this world as individual acts of God.

Again, I have no doubt that God will punish all the nations for their wickedness, but I don't believe the destruction of the WTC - as terrible as it was - represents that.

You may disagree with me, but then please show me where I have missed the apocalyptic significance of this event. I could show you where I think it fits in the picture, but I think you should think about it for a while. Start with Matthew 24, specifically verses 6-8. Then ask yourself, was what happened on 9/11/01 an act of war, or the outpouring of God's wrath?

Whether you agree with me or not, God bless you, and may He keep you well in Israel.