[2ndMostConservativeBrdMember]

My dear brother and sister FReepers,

At this, of all times in my lifetime, I would like nothing more than to be able to read these threads and reply to them.  I have much I would like to say.

BUT, I cannot!

Why?

Because I am trying hard to raise the finances needed to keep FreeRepublic up and running so that we can continue to share valuable information and respond to it.

I beg you, if you have not yet donated to FreeRepublic this quarter,  do so now!

If you have already donated, THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND GOD BLESS YOU, please ping your friends, and FReep on...!

I realize you are giving to lots of Relief efforts and I encourage you to do so.  But we need to help FR too.  Where would we be right now without it?

If you have no money, please come and bump the Fundraiser Thread.

I would really like to reach our goal quickly so that I and the rest of the dedicated FReepers who are working the Fundraiser Threads can participate in what is undeniably the most important time in FreeRepublic's history.

WHERE WOULD YOU GET YOUR NEWS FROM IF FREEREPUBLIC WASN'T HERE?<--click here

Support FreeRepublic! Support the U.S.A. <--click here

[Steven W.]

Sorry ... but BS. We've had to put up with this kind of crap from NZ before - refusing to let our ships dock, etc., etc.. If the people feel differently then they better focus on making sure they let their government know because, as their leaders are being told, roll is being taken and it's only going to be called once. They're either for us or against us. And we'll remember forever & ever and particularly when foreign aid time rolls around again.

[Big Bunyip]

I think the correct pronunciation is Hulun Cluck. (antipodean humor).

[ScreamingFist]

LOL. Well done Doug. I was amazed, New Zealand counter FReeped FR. Lots of good comments. Perhaps you should link to the original thread.

[oyez]

The Kiwi's need reminding that if wasn't for America, they would be cleaning out toilts for the Japannese about now.

[Dac]

Guys Guys, Perhaps if the postings were correct then there would be an informed debate......May I correct matters? 1 ... NZ does support the US in it's Tragedy 2.... NZ has offered it's military in support ( our SAS are on stand-by for any requests from the US)and our military will respond to requests in general to the best of our ability 3.... As far as cleaning toilets for Japan, may I remind those learned correspondants that New Zealand was engaged in a war of survival along with the Commonwealth and European countries against terrorism some 2 plus years before the US was FORCED into it by an attack on it's forces 4.... The US has designated mainland China as a more favoured friend than NZ.....? a great move....a good ally to have...I see that you are even able to use their airfeilds to land your P-3's on. 5 ....Get the facts right and have some informed comment.And by the way....our Prime Minister may be an embarrasment in your eyes, but she does not have a prediliction for cigars and staffers. I write this as an ex serviceman who spent 20 years in the service of his country, who has spent time in the US working alongside your servicemen and in other countries, and who is ready to stand in defence of his country again when and if required. So don't bag the little guys...look to your own faults and fix them first.

[KiwiGirl]

http://www.encyclopedia.com/articlesnew/31196.html

This states that back in 1985 we would not let nuclear ships in, so in 1986 you abolished your responsibilties to New Zealand under the ANZUS treaty.

You can boycott NZ products if you want but we were abolished from ANZUS and we are still willing to help, I can't see why we are being attacked for it.

[ziggy7]

Hi Doug, Your inaccurate reading of a N.Z. press release is offensive. As you know, our non participation in ANZUS is only due to not being included by the U.S. since 1986. Kiwi soldiers have fallen in Africa, WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam and more recently East Timor. We have all grieved for the loss in the U.S. and have offered intelligence and S.A.S. support. New Zealand Fireman are collecting for a fund for the New York Firemen. Public gatherings are being organised to show support for the New York victims. We are a most worthy ally.

[mrbluesky]

According to the CIA World Factbook 2001 "ANZUS (US suspended security obligations to NZ on 11 August 1986)" That is what Ms. Clark was referring to. NZ has a great deal of its own problems right now, and does not have the resources that the US does. She did however state that NZ would support the US in any way it could. I am an American living in New Zealand, and I thought I would get the facts straight.

[Kiwi and Proud]

Good to see there is less rabid Kiwi-bashing (apart from one or two ignorant people). Thanks for your clarification. PK

[rintense]

Good! I can still watch Xena! ;)

[muzza29]

It is a terrible thing that has happened in New York and in Washington and the number of people dead. I feel truly sorry for the survivors and the family of the dead. What I dont agree with is the fact that you and the other misinformed condemn our nation and our Primeminister because we are not committing frontline troops. You dont seem to be well enough informed on New Zealand or international politics to comment! Besides no-one can say that George Bush was exactly the choice of the US people. It is the ignorance and blinkered view of many in the United States and the rest of the world,that has caused the WTC disaster and the problems in the middle east. Too many "conservative" Americans are gun-toting cowboys with no kind of knowledge of what they or the USA are doing in this world. Label me a commie or a lefty- i dont give a rats a*s. The US are too ready to jump in to any conflict and/or cause conflict,while playing the happy peacemaker.Take the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, no doubt there are many of you out there saying that the Muslims hate the Israeli's because thay represent freedom and all that is good and right (for good read American) in this world. Well I dont think that backing the Israelis now can appease the gulit of ignoring what happened to the Jewish people in WWII- (the one time that you as a nation didnt jump in) No-one wanted to take the disinfranchised Jews of Europe after the war but the US will help them persecute the Palestinians now. And while you're at it why not attack Afganistan? After all Osama bin Laden (most probably) is there- thats if the CIA and special forces can locate him -now the question is where is the proof? And yet another -can the US actually hit him if they do go in? After all the airforce dropped bombs on their own observers (incl. a New Zealander), the CIA admit missing the target a few months ago when firing on bin Laden's courtage of cars.OOPS!

[New Zealander]

Doug, it's really good to see you helping to clarify the matter yourself.

In case anyone is still confused, New Zealand, a small nation of approximately 4 million people, without major military sea or airlift capability, currently stretching its military resources to the limit to deploy in East Timor (with the full support of the US, who felt obliged and would have been tied up in this role, had the Australians and New Zealand not offered) has pledged it's full support for the US.

We are not a large nation, and nothing can alter that fact - but the concept of a small nation seems too much of a stretch for some people - how many American cities of 4 million are expected to maintain their own welfare, health funding, armed forces, police fisheries, provide support to the UN, manage the environment or care for parks the size of several large cities and guard one of the largest coastlines in the world? We simply don't have the resources to deploy large numbers overseas, and the most we can realistically offer is intelligence support, light logistics and special forces. That is full support.

Why this spurns talk of ANZUS is strange - when New Zealand became anti-nuclear, the Russians began to try to court us - to turn us into one of their allies - we politely told them where they could stick that idea, and our support remained with the US. Our reason for rejecting nuclear ship visits is unarguable - the Russians would not let American ships use New Zealand as a safe haven in a nuclear war - we became a target. In such a large country as America you can be forgiven for saying 'so what - couldn't you take human losses like the rest of us?' - it's nothing like that at all - the Russians had our major centres targeted - these weapons radius of death was huge, covering our nation from cost to cost.

In global nuclear war, we would have lost everything.

No country has the right to ask another to be obliterated, just so they can have one more insignificant port of call.

As for some peoples comments about the Japanese threat, I don’t mind feeling gratitude towards the US, but I don’t like getting the impression you are giving that America was the selfless, heroic saviour of New Zealand, since America considered our nation just an option of advance towards the Japanese mainland, and as far as the battles of the Pacific go, would have taken any opportunity to defeat a major Japanese naval concentration.

If there is something you read time and time again about New Zealand’s involvement in the Second World War, it's the surprise of the Axis soldiers that someone could come from the other side of the world, to fight in someone else's war. That feeling is alive today - many of us would love to be there fighting the good fight - but it is not possible. But that is just the way New Zealanders are - in wwII we didn't like Hitler much from the start, and we felt people deserved a fair go. We offered our support then as we do now - as quickly as we could. Which is why we've felt so riled by some of these posts, some which are lies, and an insult to our national spirit. It's a fact that New Zealand gave more of itself during the Second World War than any other allied nation aside from Russia. Our soldiers were constantly thrown into the breach on Crete, in North Africa, and beside American troops in Italy, and our losses were greatly disproportionate to our size. We are all grateful to Americans who lost their lives in the Second World War - but we have no debt to you, just as no nation has a debt to us for our losses and sacrifice.

I seriously suggest some of you adjust your attitude from one of misplaced anger, and big-headedness, to one of mutual gratitude. At the end of the day, we are Allies.

As for all this talk of lefties and communism, you’ve got it all wrong – New Zealand government is usually made up of either a centre right, or a centre left party – centre is the operative word - the difference between the two is pretty small. Right, and the economy does alright but welfare suffers, so people seek a change and vote left, and we get a bit of a breather, then we need a bit of a change and vote back the other way. It means nothing.

I can’t get over how some people STILL don’t realise that that ONE article from yesterday does not represent the opinion of the PM – she is for supporting the US, as validated by the US President himself.

[N Evans]

All kiwis were appalled and horrified at the tragic events of last week, and our hearts go out to the bereaved and injured. We also watched with admiration, the work of your emergency services, and the spirit of the people in and around the target sites, as they coped with this outrage, and rallied to help. Civilised people everywhere, want these perpetrators to be caught and punished for the war criminals that they are. Contrary to your quite misinformed comment that precipitated this discussion, New Zealand and New Zealanders stand ready to support the United States in ways in which it is able - a fact conveyed to, and acknowledged by, President Bush. We have stood beside the United States in many wars: WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf War. We are small, so our contributions are necessarily modest, but symbolise our regard for the democratic values for which we both stand. The discussion on ANZUS is a red herring in discussing the current events. Some earlier comments have correctly noted that it has not been operational for 15 years. This was because of OUR exclusion by the U.S., due to our ban on nuclear ships. Mention has been made by others of nuclear testing in the South Pacific, the "Rainbow Warrior" affair, all of which underscores our abhorrence of nuclear weapons. New Zealand's anti-nuclear stance means that we are not prepared to be in an alliance at any price. We are entitled to our values too, are we not? And differing values, just like different religions, should not prevent us being friends. Your readers would be wrong to assume that a change of government from a centre-left to a centre-right would do anything to change our nuclear stance. We had a conservative-ish government from 1990 to 1999 (Mrs Shipley, and including our erstwhile Defence Minister Max Bradford) and they didn't dare overturn our nuclear stance, as they had the sense to realise that to try and do so would have been political suicide. It is true that the present Labour government has cancelled an arrangement to acquire F-16s. We have had two squadrons of A4 Skyhawks for 30 years. They have never been deployed in a theatre of war, and have never fired a shot in anger. We have 1,200 miles of water to our nearest neighbour, Australia, so even to a layman like me, an air defence capability seems a bit of a luxury. However, the government is investing more than its predecessor on defence, with a greater emphasis on the army. Successive NZ governments had previously neglected spending on the army. Yet it is our army that has been the most active in peacekeeping roles in the Middle East, Angola, Balkans, the Solomons, and presently East Timor. We have never failed to answer a call from the United Nations for a peacekeeping role. Our troops are well liked, because they take the trouble to get alongside and understand the locals, and are seen as honest brokers. When I read some of the gung-ho and jingoistic comments of your readers, I really fear for the judgement of some of America's citizens. They remind me quite a lot of these fundamentalists we abhor. The projection or threat of US power, support for corrupt regimes - Noriega, Somoza, Saddam Hussein (vs. Iran), and overwhelming self-interest, is part of the reason that the United States has made some bitter enemies around the world. We learn now that the US in Afghanistan's war against the USSR even supported Osama bin Laden. This present world crisis will require cool but determined heads to effect the goal to eliminate terrorism. The enemy is shadowy, elusive, and smart - as the planning of their attack showed, so plastering some barren hills in Afghanistan might be somewhat satisfying to the American psyche, but may not achieve very much (as President Clinton proved). We will all cheer if this goal is achieved and these criminals are brought to justice. I believe however that it must equally be accompanied by diplomatic and genuine efforts to address the conditions that breed this kind of fanatic, and a genuine willingness to try and understand legitimate aspirations and displaying even-handedness in dealing with these. The alternative is too horrible to contemplate.

[Truerepublican]

Good on you Doug for admitting you got it wrong. How many non-allies have had their troops deployed with ours in Bosnia, the Gulf, or have been prepared to take casualties for our cause in places like Timor?? When we bombed our own people in Kuwait who was killed? US and New Zealand military personnel. We have been falling beside each other since the First World War and it is great to see that the world's most isolated country is prepared to continue fighting for freedom in the new challenge that confronts us. New Zealand should be held up as a model not criticised. My reading of what PM Clark said is that NZ is waiting for a request from the US. In the meantime she has offered full intelligence cooperation (SOMETHING THAT NZ HAS BEEN GIVING ANYWAY) AND SPECIAL FORCES. That means crack troops training amongst otherthings in counter-terrorism. Sounds pretty good to me. And as for Steven W. Since when have we ever given aid to NZ??????? Their lifestyle is better than ours. They have been wealthier than us for big periods of their history and I have a funny feeling that they will get there again.

[lewislynn]

The attack on America.

"Just 24 hours before the attack on America, New Zealand’s Labour Government destroyed this country’s own strike force capacity by dismantling our fighter jets from the airforce. We were assured by our Deputy Prime Minister that in this day and age, there would be no risk from attacks from other countries."

[Pauline-NZ]

you really shouldnt be telling any country to put its house in order. Has there not been embarrassments in your house over the years as well....

[Helen Rocks!]

The reason why Prime Minister Clark has not used the ANZUS agreement, is because in 1986 the US Government notified the Cabinet of the day that they no longer wished to have a defence relationship with New Zealand and had no interest in protecting our sovereignty, basically because the then Prime Minister Rt Hon. David Lange, made New Zealand a Nuclear-Free Country (the First country in the world to have such a policy) and denied access to US (and all other including australian) Nuclear War ships. So in fact New Zealand ceased to be a member of ANZUS in 1986. However the US government has asked our Cabinet to put our elite SAS forces on alert with the British Army suggesting them as suitable to the US, along with the SAS our intelligence services are also being used. I take great offence at your remarks and personal attacks on our Prime Minister. As for your World War remarks, New Zealand was involved from the start in Both world wars and did not wait to be attacked, as a result per-head of population more soldiers from New Zealand died than ANY other country, which is something we as a nation we are proud of. We may be small (current pop 3.8million) but we give our all, and irrational and ignorant attacks on a small country like ours, does nothing to stop terror attacks. So in future why not do some proper investigation into the background of decisions and events, and base your articles on facts instead of using the writings of a regional newspaper with absolutely no political credibility like the PRESS. Why not spend your energy attacking the people who attacked you, not the people who your country snobbed following a disagreement on policy. Miss Clark was right in not recognising ANZUS, as it hasnt applied here since July 1986, so while you may not like the fact that we didnt back down to you like so many other countries, we are what we are and that is Nuclear Free and Proud, but we are also, as our Government said when it held a special session the day of the attacks, committed to assisting in the fight against terror attacks, just as we were during the Boer War, World War One AND Two, the Korean War, Vietnam, the Solomon Islands, the Gulf War, Bosnia, and currently in East Timor (a place which the US refused to help the UNs work) so get your facts right in future before attacking another small country, we have nothing in our past to be ashamed about!

[Dan from Michigan]

Hell, it took 8 years for our own country to get part of our house in order. We did used to have some jackass Communist here named Klinton, and he sure as hell didn't speak for everyone in the US.

The Kiwi's were one of the few to help us in Nam. I take my hat off for that. Regardless if it is just moral support, intelligence support or military support, the support is appreciated. It's times like this where we find out who our friends are.

And with regards to the comment about the US having China be a better neighbor, we've been trying to correct the China policy our government has had for years.

[aculeus]

I emailed a complaint to the NZ embassy and today received the following response:

Thank you for your message below.

If your message of "shame" refers to your views of the horrific events of 11 September in New York and Washington, I agree with you. If, however, you are referring to New Zealand, I strongly disagree with you as New Zealand is one of only two countries that stood with the United States in every major conflict of the 20th century. I regret to say there appears to have been some erroneous and misleading reporting in the New Zealand media of the New Zealand Government's response to those tragic events.

In fact on learning of these events while in Rome, Italy our Prime Minister, Rt Hon Helen Clark, cancelled the remainder of an official visit to Europe which she had just begun and returned immediately to New Zealand.

On her return to New Zealand the Prime Minister made a public statement saying that she had written to President Bush to express New Zealand's revulsion at the terrorist acts committed against the United States. Indeed that was New Zealand's second official message of condolence. Given the world of instantaneous communications in which we live, a number of New Zealanders watched in horror as the events unfolded during the middle of the night in New Zealand with the Acting Prime Minister, Hon Jim Anderton sending a message of condolence to the President at 4.00am New Zealand time.

The Prime Minister also unambiguously expressed New Zealand's support for efforts by the United States and the international community to combat terrorism and to bring to justice the perpetrators of the attacks. To quote the Prime Minister from her 14 September statement; which was headed "New Zealand Pledges support to United States."

"The United States will be considering what responses it needs from friends around the world. We have yet to receive any specific requests, but New Zealand will help in any way we can.

We are passing on that message in the White House.

New Zealand condemns any form of terrorism. The attacks against the United States were attacks against all civilised nations. New Zealand is determined to do its bit."

Asked in Parliament what New Zealand's contribution was likely to be, the Prime Minister indicated that New Zealand was prepared to offer diplomatic support, on-going intelligence support and military support as we can, including, if necessary, the special forces.

In contrast to what you may have read, it is clear that New Zealand stands shoulder to shoulder with the United States in its preparedness to combat the evil of terrorism.

Yours sincerely

Rt Hon James B Bolger ONZ
Ambassador

It appears the 'problem' began in the NZ media.