A former PLA soldier hired by Russians gives a reality check on Russia-Ukraine war

YouTube ^ | 5/23/2024 | Li Jianwei

[JonPreston]

And isn’t stealing natural resources from lesser nations part of your Neocon foreign policy?

No it's not. We pay market rates

We pay at the point of a bayoneted. It's the American way!

[Chad C. Mulligan]

We pay at the point of a bayoneted.

ROFLMAO!

So we run up to the poor suckers with guns and bayonets and say "Here, take our money or we'll kill you"?

Sounds like a knockout Monty Python sketch from here!

[Chad C. Mulligan]

The Russian invasion of the Republic of Georgia in 2008, and the Ukrainian limited operation in 2014 were clear signs that Russia will not accept us expanding NATO to their borders. In both cases, the US was heading on a path for NATO admission by these states.

Just fisking one point because my Arthuritis is bad today.

OF COURSE Moscow doesn't want NATO in Georgia or Ukraine, because Moscow thinks they have a God-given right to forcibly annex both nations for themselves. That's why both nations were asking to be admitted. Sadly for them, the process took too long.

We in the West must never assume that Russia is a rational actor in world geopolitics. It is not. At the bottom it is religiously driven, like Iran and all the rest of Islam. (Is that why Moscow and the Mullahs are now a team?) All you have to do to understand this is read their leading political advisor/philosophers, Dugin, Ilyin, Gumilev, et.al. I've posted several book titles that will clarify this. Will do it again if asked.

[BroJoeK]

JonPreston: "What you saying?
It’s not been about Freedom and democracy for Ukraine? "

No, that's what Russian propaganda says.
Freedom and democracy are included in my item #3 above, note especially the map of countries by democracy index, and graphic showing the march of dictatorships in recent years.

JonPreston: "And isn’t stealing natural resources from lesser nations part of your Neocon foreign policy?"

The only leader in American history to call for taking another country's oil is Donald Trump, but that was a very specific case, where he said we should never have invaded Iraq in the first place -- because Saddam was Iran's enemy! -- but once we did invade, then we should have charged Iraq for the war costs by taking their oil in payment.

Of course, Trump does not consider payments for services rendered as "stealing" their oil, nor has anyone ever accused Trump of being a "Neocon", to my knowledge.

JonPreston: "So why can’t Russia do the same? "

So, you wish to analogize Iraq with Ukraine??
Well then, let me count the ways -- before Vlad's invasion in 2014:

1. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, never invaded Kuwait or any other neighbor.

2. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, never waged years' long wars against Iran, so Ukraine's military in 2013 was more-or-less useless.

3. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, had not allied with Russia's enemies.
   Indeed, even in 2013 both Ukraine and Russia were NATO "Partners for Peace"!!!
   2014 was not even about NATO, it was about a proposed trade deal with the EU.

4. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, never mass murdered its own people, to include with WMDs (poison gas).

5. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, never sponsored terrorists who attacked its neighbors and threatened the US (or Russian) allies.

6. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, was never in violation of a single UN Resolution.
   Iraq's numerous violations in 2003 included: failure to disarm and end the development of WMDs, refusal to cooperate with UN weapons inspectors, and failure to comply with obligations regarding the treatment of prisoners of war and Kuwaiti property.

7. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, never attacked a Russian warship such as the USS Stark in May 1987, with Exocet missiles, killing 37 US sailors, injuring 21 more.

8. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, never tried to develop nuclear weapons, indeed Ukraine gave up its stockpile of nukes in exchange for security promises from Russia!

9. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, never threatened anybody with Weapons of Mass Destruction, real or imagined.

10. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, had & has a constitutionally structured & democratically elected government.

11. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, never replaced its government in a "coup".
    Ukraine did once, in 2014 constitutionally replace its traitor stooge Pres. Yanukovich by a vote of Ukraine's parliament -- 328 to zero, and then quickly held new certified valid elections.

12. Ukraine, unlike Iraq, is an 85% Christian country, at peace with its neighbors and eager to join the community of civilized countries as represented in the European Union and NATO.

JonPreston: "Who exactly does Lindsey Graham represent?"

Sen. Graham represents the people of South Carolina who elected him, the same people who also elected Sen. Scott and voted overwhelmingly for Donald Trump.
In recent years, Sen. Graham has allied strongly with Donald Trump and in this particular quote can easily be thought of as "channeling" his "inner Trump", in Trump's concern for economics and the Art of the Deal.

JonPreston: "And who the hell does America think they are!"

Americans.

JonPreston: "Now type, dammit."

[gleeaikin]

I thinks item 8 in your list of things Ukraine has not done needs special emphasis. Russia AND THE US both signed agreements to defend Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine returning all the Soviet nuclear missiles remaining in their terrirory. The missiles were returned and Russia violated the signed agreement. Now we are honoring our part of this agreement by helping protect Ukraine from outside invasion.

[JonPreston]

And this time we don't have JFK

Sen. Graham represents the people of South Carolina who elected him

Please show us where Graham's constituents support war with Russia, or the more than $200bn dollars in US taxpayer aid to The Zelensky.

And who the hell does America think they are!"

Americans.

America has been a participant in more than 250 wars and police actions since NATO was established. When will enough, and when will Neocons realize that Pax Americana is a failed, very sick notion?

Now, fill these pages with words!

[Chad C. Mulligan]

Please show us where Graham's constituents support war with Russia, or the more than $200bn dollars in US taxpayer aid to The Zelensky.

They keep re-electing him. That's how we show support in this country. How do you do it in Russia, Jon?

[JonPreston]

They keep re-electing him

That wasn't the question and it's also irrelevant considering Grahan represents EVERY CITIZEN of South Carolina, regardless of political party or voting record. They are all US taxpayers.

[Chad C. Mulligan]

That wasn't the question and it's also irrelevant considering Grahan represents EVERY CITIZEN of South Carolina, regardless of political party or voting record. They are all US taxpayers.

Voting is how we do it here. If that somehow doesn't satisfy you, then go somewhere else.

[JonPreston]

Voting is how we do it here

You Neocons have much more faith in the electoral system that most Americans do. Just look to the 2020 election for an eye opener. Biden got 81 million votes? Please tell me you don't believe that. BTW, Graham isn't the product of the voters, rather he's the installed tool of South Carolina's military defense lobby. Incumbents and money talk in your corrupt system.

[Chad C. Mulligan]

Take a Thorazine and lie down. It’ll pass.

[JonPreston]

So far your argument has been, “he’s a Russian” and “take a Thorazine” yet you are the first one to call for civility. Is this the best you Neocons can do?

[Chad C. Mulligan]

Who’s arguing? You posed a question, I gave you the rational answer, and you went off on a conspiracy rant.

[JonPreston]

I gave you the rational answer

I guess it's a rational answer to your fellow GOPe Neocons gathered here in this backroom section of tFR. And talk about conspiracies, this is quite the gathering of forever war KooKs. Haven't you guys had enough of failed wars? Don't you get tired of backing thieving politicians and their crimes against humanity?

[Red6]

Bad argument.

The differences between Iraq and Ukraine are irrelevent.

It’s “us” (the US) that invaded a nation which posed no national security threat to us, where we lied about a WMD and terrorist connection, where we have been asked REPEATEDLY to leave and we don’t (that’s called occupation), and we’re in control of this nation all while we spew our democracy, sovereignty, human rights crap endlessly (as if we’re some nice guys).

We have been asked to leave maybe 20 times or so... And because we care so much about a nations sovereignty, we don’t.

Most recently: https://www.newarab.com/news/iraqi-pm-al-sudani-demands-us-troops-leave-country

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ava2A1uI-8w

No worries, you have not been confronted much with this in your largely state directed narrative presented in your MSM. No thinking required. Google, our intel agency search engine (https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance) makes sure to rank all searches related to this low, and push those one or two stories about some “undisclosed” Iraqi official saying that “in private” the Iraqi’s don’t want our withdraw to the top. (hahaha)

Mere coincidently, Iraq is an oil producing nation and was once aligned with Russia. That surely has absolutely nothing to do with our decisions./sarc

Here’s a real conspiracy theory that is surely Russian propaganda (much less believable than democracy, human rights and sovereignty) for you: We used 9-11 as an excuse (never let a crisis go to waste) and seized another Russian territory becuse it had an economic value to us.

You guys that keep talking about “democracy, human rights and sovereignty,” do you really believe that? Seriously? Is that what you think is really the motivation on our side?

[Red6]

If this war had never happened, the US would be somewhere in the range of $300 billion wealthier. Certain US firms have made a lot (arms/petro), but the average American tax payer has not. They are a net loser.

Had this war never happened, Ukraine would be better off. I won't even begin to list how Ukraine has suffered and been damaged by this war.

Had this war never happened, Europe would be better off.

This caused a war (plain and simple): https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/

That was our decision.

There was no eminent threat, no requirement, no need for that move.

WE KNEW THIS COULD LEAD TO WAR and in fact it is possible that WE WANTED THIS WAR.

In the meantime, Ukraine is no longer a democracy (the little bit they had), it is more advantageous to have a dictator who is 100% under our control, so now we no kidding rationalize why it's good to cancel elections. Ukraine’s human rights violations have become worse yet (they had a bad track record even before the war), and post Maiden they were essentially a cuckhold state of the US, a proxy who we control, so applying the concept of “sovereignty” on our side is somewhat ironic.

Post Maiden, Ukraine was basically under our control (someone that did some research and compiled a lot of info on this subject): https://www.quora.com/Is-there-any-credible-evidence-that-Ukraines-2014-revolution-was-due-to-a-CIA-coup/answer/Kylee-Smith-83

I do not consider myself anti-Ukraine one bit, because I want that place to prosper and be in peace. It is your side that has some obsession with Russia, is stuck with a Cold War threat picture (these people and their “feelings” are just used by those in power because no one actually believes that crap), or in the Neo-Cons case (and these folks do have influence on our givernment) want to use our military as some new colonial force pushing our economic and political agenda around the world by dropping bombs. And then some folks think they're a “good person” because they spew vapid terms like “democracy, sovereignty, and human rights.”

There is such a thing as a “just war” concept, totally forgotten/ignored today. We know this, and that is why we use these ideas like democracy, sovereignty and human rights as our justification. We're trying to pretend like we have a moral cause essentially. But it's fake. We do not care if someone is a dictator and in fact instal them ourselves, or secure them as in Saudi Arabia, Jordan... If a democracy disagrees with us, we will topple that government and install our own, as in Ukraine. When you start shooting at people, or start a war as we did, you better be real sure that your cause is a good one. We we haven't had that in a looooong time.

When this war in Ukraine ends, there is a good chance that NATO itself is in crisis, and we'll have no one to blame but ourselves (of course we'll blame Russia and Putin).

The Euro's are beginning to wake up. They are realizing that this Ukraine war is part of a geo-political strategy by us against Russia and that Ukraine itself is irrelevant. It is for us just a means to an end.

You already have three Euro leaders coming out PUBLICALY stating what I claim, that we wanted this war, Robert Fico (Slovakia/NATO), Viktor Orban (Hungary/NATO), Aleksandar Vučić (Serbia).

One of them had an assasignation attempt on his life by someone on your side of the argument: https://apnews.com/article/slovakia-prime-minister-fico-speech-online-878f0271e2ec3d3c378abe966415e20b Could you imagine if this were the other way around? If a pro-war Euro politician had an assassination attempt on his life, what would the news be talking about 24/7 in your free, unbiased, non-propagandist MSM in the US? How long would it take before someone would concoct some theory that the Russians are behind this? That politician would be turned into George Floyd by our MSM.

You can talk about democracy, human rights and sovereignty all you want, but folks are starting to catch on, and it's not going to be pretty once the dust settles: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2023-09-27/U-S-blows-Nord-Stream-pipeline-to-keep-its-primacy-in-W-Europe-Hersh-1nr1Saengsg/index.html (in the name of sovereignty I assume. Oh wait, the Russians blew up their own pipeline that they were making money off of (when crazy conspiracy theories and government propaganda is suddenly the truth in the eyes of folks like you.)

In this Ukraine war, Europe is paying 1/2 the bill, taking on the majority of refugees. The Ukrainians are doing near all the bleeding. And we are the ones that stand to benefit.

[Chad C. Mulligan]

Had this war never happened, Ukraine would be better off.

Oh, yeah.

Ukraine would be fully occupied by Moscow's troops.

Speaking the Ukrainian language would be forbidden.

Ukrainians and their children would be being deported to the gulags.

Russians moved from Moscow would be occupying the homes of the deportees.

Rule of Law would be dead. replaced by Rule of Russian Kleptocracy.

Worshiping in the Ukrainian Orthodox church would be forbidden.

All these things already happening in Donbas and Crimea.

Yeah, Ukraine would be so much better off!

[JonPreston]

Ukraine would be fully occupied by Moscow's troops.

Speaking the Ukrainian language would be forbidden.

This actually happened after the CIA sponsored Maidan coup in 2014, but in reverse. The Ukraine began shelling citizens in the Donbas while outlawing the Russian language. Please Mulligan, think before you type.

[Red6]

You make statements that you probably don’t even believe yourself.

Factually, the Russians started amassing troops along the border AFTER our move to bring Ukraine into NATO.

Factually, the Russians from October 2021 to February 2022 tried to negotiate with us and we STONEWALLED them.

That can easily be verified by simple media searches.

At least attempt to stay in reality. When you start making up things, which you can do about any subject, it doesn’t bring you any closer to a truth.

This was us, it was our call, and it caused a war: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/

In fact, other nations were more reserved about this and wanted to implement Minsk, i.e. Germany and France. This was a disengagement strategy, but we had ZERO interest and were the ones violating Minsk at every opportunity.

[Chad C. Mulligan]

Repeating the “CIA” lie will never make it true, Jon.

And by most (non-Russian) accounts about half of Ukrainians are bilingual and still use Russian in ordinary commerce.

You’re pegging the BS meter this afternoon.