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To: David Hunter
"That’s a very unfair characterization of Ukraine. Given that it was the US government who persuaded Ukraine (during the Obama Administration) to give Russia all its SRBMs and heavy bombers a few years before Russia first attacked them in 2014"

That wasn't my government. I didn't vote for Clinton or Obama. And it's not my problem that Ukraine was dumb enough to listen to Bill Clinton, and then Obama. Antony Blinken's father oversaw the Budapest Memorandum. And now they're dealing with his shitful son. How much was Ukraine paid monetarily by the U.S. to do that? You know they got something. Knowing Bill, he got something from it too. Maybe Biden did as well, seeing that he was in charge of Ukraine when he was V.P. Even the Soviet Union was stupid when they agreed to a non-aggression pact with Hitler in 1939. Anyone with half-a-brain knew Hitler couldn't be trusted to keep any agreement. And Russia paid in the end for being so naive. Now, so too is Ukraine, but that Europe's problem, not ours, and certainly not worth going to actual war with Russia over. America today should not pay for the sins of the likes of Clinton and Obama.

99 posted on 03/28/2024 6:40:05 PM PDT by mass55th (“Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway.” ― John Wayne)
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To: mass55th
***That wasn't my government. I didn't vote for Clinton or Obama. And it's not my problem that Ukraine was dumb enough to listen to Bill Clinton, and then Obama. ... How much was Ukraine paid monetarily by the U.S. to do that? You know they got something. Knowing Bill, he got something from it too. Maybe Biden did as well, seeing that he was in charge of Ukraine when he was V.P. ... Now, so too is Ukraine, but that Europe's problem, not ours, and certainly not worth going to actual war with Russia over. America today should not pay for the sins of the likes of Clinton and Obama.***

Clinton and Obama were still elected by the American people and they were POTUS during all those international negotiations and agreements. You cannot just wash your hands of your international commitments just because they were agreed upon by Democrats.

If Ukraine hadn't scrapped their SRBMs stockpile (capable of hitting Moscow), along with the missile launchers, support vehicles and factory lines for producing more of them, at the behest of the Obama administration, it's possible Putin would not have invaded them. This, and the previous strategic errors, are presumably why Biden is such a staunch supporter of Ukraine; he knows this catastrophe wouldn't be happening if Russia hadn't cleverly tricked successive US governments into helping to weaken Ukraine.

Due to Western security promises the Ukrainians had previously (during the Clinton administration) scrapped, or handed over to Russia, their fleet of strategic long-range (nuclear-capable) bombers and cruise missiles:

https://twitter.com/sumlenny/status/1732010631161614385

But before you dismiss the Ukrainians as dumb, you have to keep in mind that the leaders of Ukraine during those negotiations were PRO-RUSSIAN SHILLS. They did not care about the viability of an independent Ukrainian state in the future, in fact they wanted to weaken it enough for Russia to be able to take it by force if necessary. They secretly took their orders from the Kremlin and were Russia's puppets. That is why after Viktor Yanukovych fled the country in 2014 (Putin's last puppet President there) the Russians invaded Crimea and the Donbass, because if they couldn't control the Ukrainian President then they needed to physically take over the country's valuable strategic areas instead.

But none of this excuses the USA from its security promises and moral duty to help Ukraine. No foreign government is asking the USA to go to war over Ukraine. The Ukraine is not even a member of NATO (it was black-balled by France and Germany in 2006).

However, the least the US can do is honour its publicly stated commitment to help Ukraine if it came under attack from Russia and send it arms/ammunition/provisions so that it can halt ongoing brutal Russian aggression. The EU/Britain are matching the financial cost of the USA's support packages to Ukraine, so the US is not going it alone.

105 posted on 03/29/2024 9:04:26 AM PDT by David Hunter
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