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To: Justa; JonPreston; MeganC; Chad C. Mulligan; PIF; UMCRevMom@aol.com
Justa: "Iraq is no longer a haven for a KGB-trained despot who delighted in invading his neighbors.
This is the real reason the KGB-Putin Posters are hung up over Iraq."

In 1991, curiously enough, after the Soviet debacle in Afghanistan, Russians under Michael Gorbachev supported Bush the Elder's western coalition in Gulf War I.
But by 2003 Vladimir Putin opposed Bush the Younger's Gulf War II, and our pro-Russian repeaters here have happily adopted the same stance.

The Old Soviets' relations with Saddam Hussein were... "complicated" and on-again, off-again, largely due to the Soviets' incompatible desires to also maintain good relations with Iran.
During an "on-again" period, the early 1970s, Iraq received aid & training from the Soviet KGB and East Germany's Stasi.

The Iraq-Iran war led Saddam to seek allies among western powers, notably France and the USA.
This cooled relations with Russia enough that by the 1991 Gulf War I, Michael Gorbachev sided against Iraq.
But by 2003, Vlad the Invader had restored Russia's relations with Iraq enough to oppose Gulf War II, at least verbally.

Today, 20+ years after Gulf War II, Iraq remains a poster child of our pro-Russian neo-isolationists, for what and who was wrong about "neo-conservatism".
Even on Free Republic, whose posters strongly supported the War on Terror, including in Iraq, some now claim to have opposed "neo-cons" from the beginning.

One person who's never publicly mocked neo-conservatism or "neo-cons" as such is Donald Trump.
Yes, Trump calls the Iraq war a "big fat mistake", and derides some (i.e., John Bolton) as "war mongers".
Plus, Trump opposes "nation-building".
Most important, says Trump, we should have taken some of Iraq's oil to help pay for the war.

So, what is Iraq's situation today?

  1. Iraq's GDP per capita has tripled since 2000.
    Today Iraq's GDP/capita is roughly equal to Ukraine's, about half of Russia's.

  2. Iraq's oil production is double what it was in 2000.

  3. Iraq's Democracy Index scores very high for a Middle Eastern country in: electoral processes, pluralism and in political participation.
    Like other Mideast countries, Iraq scores poorly for civil liberties; and like other war-torn countries, zero for functioning government.

  4. Iraq's Corruption Index has slowly improved from one of the world's worst in 2003 to now not quite so bad.

  5. Iraq's overall crime rate is roughly the same as ours.
Bottom line is the Donald Trump model of: we won't do nation-building because it costs too much in blood & treasure, takes too long and produces pathetic results, certainly in Afghanistan.
In Afghanistan, one of the world's poorest countries, GDP per capita also tripled between 2000 and 2020, but has since lost about 1/2 of what it previously gained.

By comparison, ongoing US support helps Iraqis to have done relatively well.

180 posted on 03/12/2024 10:04:30 AM PDT by BroJoeK (future DDG 134 -- we remember)
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To: BroJoeK
How does it feel to be wrong about the biggest NATO failure ever?

Nothing less than total surrender


181 posted on 03/12/2024 10:12:52 AM PDT by JonPreston ( ✌ ☮️ )
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To: BroJoeK

“In 1991, curiously enough, after the Soviet debacle in Afghanistan, Russians under Michael Gorbachev supported Bush the Elder’s western coalition in Gulf War I.”

You believe that? I sure as hell don’t!

Gorbachev’s Soviet Union was broke. It was fiscally defeated. It was simply easier to proclaim Perestroika than admit defeat.

The Russian diplomats and military advisers were shuttling weekly to Baghdad to give advice and intel for maximizing Coalition casualties. Even tho the Iraqi air force and air defense was never developed to oppose Western air power they knew enough about it and its systems to significantly oppose it and reduce its effects.

The Russians realized there were two sides in the war and played both to obtain their goals. Minimize Iraqi destruction and maximize coalition casualties. WhTF do you think gave the Iraqis satellite-based targeting solutions for their Scuds? You think those were INS-based range and bearing shots? And I KNOW KGB provided all kinds of support from 2003 onwards. Even bumped into one of their 3-man teams in BIAP heading south to Basrah weeks before the EFPs started being used there.

No, Russians/KGB were deep and dirty in basically all Iraq operations since the 1970s including the Iran war (atheist KGB protege vs. deist Khomeini.


182 posted on 03/12/2024 1:59:51 PM PDT by Justa
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To: BroJoeK
Bury us in a wall of words

Not all #Ukranians are willing to be led away to their ☠️ by #Mobilization squads.
A guy was moving his horses when he was approached by 🇺🇦 kidnappers. The passer by car came to the rescue and together they drove them away.#Ukraine fights back! pic.twitter.com/q0uolAWf9R— Arthur Morgan (@ArthurM40330824) March 7, 2024


183 posted on 03/12/2024 7:57:46 PM PDT by JonPreston ( ✌ ☮️ )
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