...If you knew what you were talking about then you would know that the Holodomor, a man-made famine that convulsed the Soviet republic of Ukraine from 1932 to 1933, peaking in the late spring of 1933, was part of a broader Soviet famine (1931–34) that also caused mass starvation in the grain-growing regions of Soviet Russia and Kazakhstan.
Was it intentional, or a major mistake made by Stalin?
Either way, his decisions impacted more than just Ukraine.
Bottom line, it was the fault of Stalin who was the Soviet Union's leader.
Putin wasn't even born yet, but you are attributing it to him."
First, on the Holodomor, it was not only a man-made famine, but also Stalin deliberately took vast quantities of Ukrainian grain & other foods to feed privileged Communist classes in Russia.
Ukrainians starved & died in their millions so that Russian Communists could live the good life.
That's one reason why no Ukrainian would ever again want their necks under the Russian jack-boots.
I used this example to counter your claims regarding "the long history of Ukraine."
The long history of Ukraine does not provide evidence that Vlad the Invader has any right to invade and annex Ukrainian provinces.
It does provide many reasons why Ukrainians will never willingly submit to Russian tyranny.
Robert DeLong: "Now Ukraine might be using that as justification for having executed an 8 year long reign of terror upon the Ukrainian Russian speaking citizens of eastern Ukraine.
But even that would be wrong of Ukraine to do. "
"Reign of terror" is an insane Russian propaganda term for Ukrainians trying to defeat the first Russian invasion in 2014.
And "Russian speakers" were never the target -- Zelenskyy himself is a Russian speaker!
The targets were always and only those people, whatever language they spoke, who provided aid and comfort to Vlad the Invader's aggression against Ukraine.
- US Constitution, Article 3, Section 3: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort...
...The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason..."
Why is that?
Robert DeLong: "Do you justify what Ukraine was doing to the Ukrainian Russian speaking citizens in eastern Ukraine?
If so, then you are a hypocrite, but it proves that you can't begin at the point of invasion.
For when you do you leave out why the invasion occurred in the first place."
Vlad the Invader launched two invasions of Ukraine, in 2014 and 2022.
Neither invasion was even remotely provoked or morally justified by events inside Ukraine.
If you think they were justified, then you've been drinking too much Russian propaganda Kool-Aide, and you need to stop that.
Robert DeLong: "It also allows you to ignore the attempts Putin made in the 8 years prior to the invasion to stop the hostilities in eastern Ukraine.
They were the Minsk Agreements.
Putin tried to get the international community involved to make Ukraine live up to the agreements Ukraine had signed in 2014 & 2015.
We found out later that Ukraine never intended to honor the agreements they signed, and that the international community had no intention of seeking a peaceful resolution."
There has only ever been one possible "peaceful resolution", and that is for Vlad the Invader to withdraw ALL his forces from Ukraine and pay reparations for the destruction he wrought there.
Nothing else will end the war, regardless of how many interim ceasefires they sign.
As for Minsk I, Minsk II and other agreements, the truth is both sides violated every agreement.
- Minsk I, 2014: "After the follow-up memorandum, the Second Battle of Donetsk Airport broke out, and both parties continued to accuse each other of ceasefire violations.[5]
In late October, DPR prime minister and Minsk Protocol signatory Alexander Zakharchenko said that his forces would retake the territory they had lost to Ukrainian forces during a July 2014 offensive, and that DPR forces would be willing to wage "heavy battles" to do so.[5][19]
Subsequently, Zakharchenko said that he had been misquoted, and that he had meant to say that these areas would be taken through "peaceful means".[20]" - Minsk I, 2014: "While campaigning in the lead-up to the 2 November elections held by the DPR and LPR in violation of the Protocol, Zakharchenko said 'These are historical times.
We are creating a new country!
It's an insane goal'.[21]
OSCE chairman Didier Burkhalter confirmed that the elections ran 'counter to the letter and spirit of the Minsk Protocol', and said that they would 'further complicate its implementation'.[22]" - Minsk I, 2014: "Speaking on 5 December, Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov said that the 2 November DPR and LPR elections were 'exactly within the range in which they had been negotiated in Minsk', and that the Ukrainian parliament was supposed to pass an amnesty bill for DPR and LPR leaders after the Ukrainian parliamentary election in late October.[23]
According to Lavrov, closer monitoring of the Russo-Ukrainian border, as specified by the Minsk Protocol, could only take place after such an amnesty law was approved.[23]
He noted that he thought that a Ukrainian presidential decree banning prosecution of Donbas separatist combatants was issued on 16 September, but said that 'a bill has now been filed proposing to overturn' the decree.[23]" - Minsk I collapse: "By January 2015, the Minsk Protocol ceasefire had completely collapsed.[24]
Following the separatist victory at Donetsk International Airport in defiance of the Protocol, DPR spokesman Eduard Basurin said that "the Minsk Memorandum will not be considered in the form it was adopted".[25]
Later in the day, DPR leader Alexander Zakharchenko said that the DPR 'will not make any attempts at ceasefire talks any more', and that his forces were going to 'attack right up to the borders of Donetsk region'.[26]
The New York Times said that the ceasefire had 'all but vanished'.[27]" - Heavy fighting, 2015: "After heavy fighting, DPR forces captured the symbolically important Donetsk International Airport on 21 January, the last part of the city of Donetsk that had been under Ukrainian control.
Following this victory, separatist forces pressed their offensive on the important railway and road junction of Debaltseve in late January.
This renewed heavy fighting caused significant concern in the international community.
French president François Hollande and German chancellor Angela Merkel put forth a new peace plan on 7 February.[30][31]" - Minsk II, 2015: "Following the talks, it was announced on 12 February 2015 that the parties to the conflict had agreed to a new package of peacemaking measures, the Package of Measures for the Implementation of the Minsk Agreements, which is commonly called Minsk II.[6][35][36][37]
Some of the measures agreed to were an OSCE-observed unconditional ceasefire from 15 February, withdrawal of heavy weapons from the front line, release of prisoners of war, and constitutional reform in Ukraine.[38]" - Minsk II, 2015: "Following the Minsk talks, Chancellor Merkel, President Hollande, and President Poroshenko attended a European Union (EU) summit in Brussels.[44]
At the summit, the Minsk participants briefed EU leaders about the talks.
During the briefing, they said that President Putin had tried to delay the implementation of a ceasefire by ten days, so as to force Ukrainian troops in Debaltseve to surrender their positions.
For his part, President Putin said that the Debaltseve defenders were encircled, and that the separatists expected them 'to lay down their arms and cease resistance'.[44] - Minsk II, 2015: "US State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said on 13 February that the Russian Armed Forces had actively deployed around Debaltseve to assist the separatists in forcing out Ukrainian troops prior to the start of the ceasefire, the 15 February.
Russia denied this, and Russian government spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that Russia could not assist in the implementation of Minsk II because it was "not a participant" in the conflict.[46]Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh said that he reserved the right to continue fighting, and that Minsk II was unconstitutional.
He said that his Ukrainian Volunteer Corps would continue fighting 'until complete liberation of Ukrainian lands from Russian occupants', and promised 'death to Russian terrorist-occupiers'.[47][48][49]
DPR leader Alexander Zakharchenko said that the ceasefire did not apply to Debaltseve, and that fighting would continue there.[50]" - Minsk II, February 2015: "Though the fighting generally subsided after the ceasefire came into effect at 0:00 EET on 15 February, skirmishes and shelling continued in several parts of the conflict zone.[51]
Shelling and fighting at Debaltseve continued, as DPR leader Alexander Zakharchenko said that the ceasefire did not apply to that area.[52]
In the south of Donetsk Oblast, fighting between DPR forces and members of the Azov Battalion continued in villages near Mariupol.[52][53]
By 16 February, Minsk II seemed on the verge of collapse.[54][55]
Separatists continued a heavy assault on Debaltseve.
Both sides said that they would not withdraw heavy weaponry as specified by the agreement whilst fighting in Debaltseve was ongoing.[56]
Reuters described the ceasefire as "stillborn" in Debaltseve.[57]
Ukrainian forces were forced to retreat from Debaltseve on 18 February, leaving separatist forces in control of the city.[58]" - Minsk II, 2015: "In the week after the fall of Debaltseve to pro-Russian forces, fighting in the conflict zone abated.[59]
DPR and LPR forces began to withdraw artillery from the front lines as specified by Minsk II on 24 February, and Ukraine did so on 26 February.
Ukraine reported that it had suffered no casualties during 24–26 February, something that had not occurred since early January 2015.[59][60] - Minsk II, 2015: "The parliament of Ukraine approved a law on "special status" for Donbas on 17 March, as specified by Minsk II.[61]
Later, in 2019, Ukraine's parliament voted to extend regulations giving limited self-rule to separatist-controlled eastern regions, a prerequisite for a deal to settle the five-year conflict there.[62]
The law was immediately criticized by Ukrainian politicians, separatist leaders, and the Russian government.
Radical Party leader Oleh Lyashko said that the law was 'a vote for de facto recognition of the Russian occupation in Donbas'.
Vice-parliamentary speaker Andriy Parubiy said that law was 'not for Putin or the occupiers', but to show Europe that Ukraine was willing to adhere to Minsk II.
Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said that the law was a 'sharp departure from the Minsk agreements' because it demanded local elections under Ukrainian jurisdiction.[61]" - Minsk II, 2015: "Representatives of the LPR and DPR said that the law was a "one-sided" modification of Minsk II, and that the agreement had been rendered void by this modification.[63]
DPR leader Alexander Zakharchenko said that any change to Minsk II that had not been mutually agreed upon was 'legally void', and that 'nothing that had been agreed upon in Minsk has been carried out'.
He added that the DPR 'must occupy all of the cities in which the referendum took place, and then politically cooperate [with Ukraine] as equal partners'.[64]
Despite this, representatives of the DPR and LPR continued to forward peace proposals to the Trilateral Contact Group on Ukraine.[65]" - Minsk II, 2015: "Ukrainian defence minister Stepan Poltorak said on 8 June 2015 that over 100 soldiers and at least 50 civilians had been killed since Minsk II came into effect.
According to him, pro-Russian forces had violated the truce more than 4,000 times.[66]
Contrary to the agreement, DPR representative Denis Pushilin and LPR representative Vladislav Deinego said on 10 June 2015 that their republics 'would like to join the Russian Federation'.
In addition, they said that they consider Crimea, which was annexed by Russia in March 2014, to be part of Russia.[67]" - Minsk II, 2016: "American Defense Department official Michael Carpenter said on 2 March 2016 that at least 430 Ukrainian soldiers had died since the signing of Minsk II, that Russia maintained 'command-and-control links' over the DPR and LPR, and that Russia was 'pouring heavy weapons' into the Donbas.[68]
Deputy head of the OSCE mission in Ukraine Alexander Hug said on 25 March 2016 that the OSCE had observed 'armed people with Russian insignia' fighting in Donbas from the beginning of the conflict, that they had talked to prisoners who said they were Russian soldiers, and that they had seen 'tire tracks, not the vehicles themselves, but the tracks of vehicles crossing the [Russo-Ukrainian] border'.[69]" - Minsk II, 2022: "A Normandy Format meeting was planned between Russia, Ukraine, Germany and France in Paris on 26 January 2022.[74][75]
Ukraine fulfilled Russia's condition for a meeting in Paris and decided to withdraw from Parliament the controversial draft law on the reintegration of the Crimea and Donbas region, because the law was contrary to the Minsk II.[76][77]" - Minsk II, 2022: "Following the fall of Debaltseve in February 2015, about one-third of the Donbas region remained in separatist control.[91]
A few days before the 2022 Russian invasion, French president Emmanuel Macron and US Secretary of State Antony Blinken opined that the Minsk agreements were "the way forward" to end the conflict in Donbas.
Blinken added that it was an incomplete step as there were other outstanding issues.[92]
The aim of the Russian intervention in Donbas was to establish pro-Russian governments that, upon reincorporation into Ukraine, would facilitate Russian inference in Ukrainian politics.[93]
The agreements were thus highly favorable to the Russian side, as their implementation would accomplish these goals.[94]" - Minsk II, 2021: "In a June 2021 interview, Vladislav Surkov, Putin's aide for Ukraine policy from 2013 to 2020, who was removed from his role in February 2020, said that Ukraine 'can be reformed as a confederation, with a lot of freedom for the regions to decide things by themselves'.
He said the country would be severed by the 'geopolitical gravity' between Russia and the West, describing the Minsk agreements as an act that 'legitimized the first division of Ukraine' in a 'reconquest', 'the first open geopolitical counter-attack by Russia [against the West]'.[97]
In October 2021, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that 'if the Americans are genuinely prepared to support the implementation of the Minsk Agreements, this issue can be settled very quickly.'[98]" - Minsk II, 2021: "In December 2021, Chief of General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces Valery Gerasimov said that 'Kyiv is not fulfilling the Minsk Agreements.
The Ukrainian armed forces are touting that they have started to employ US-supplied Javelin anti-tank missile systems in Donbas and are also using Turkish reconnaissance/strike drones.
As a result, the already tense situation in the east of that country is further deteriorating.'[110]" - Minsk II, 2022: "In January 2022, Oleksiy Danilov, the secretary of Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council, said that 'The fulfillment of the Minsk agreement means the country’s destruction.
When they were signed under the Russian gun barrel — and the German and the French watched — it was already clear for all rational people that it’s impossible to implement those documents.'[111]" - Minsk II, 2022: "On 15 February 2022, the Russian Duma voted to appeal to President Putin to recognise the self-proclaimed LPR and DPR.[113]
The next day, a Russian government spokesman acknowledged that officially recognizing the Donbas republics would not be in keeping with the Minsk agreements.[114]
However, he also told journalists that Putin's priority in regulating the situation in Donbas is the implementation of mechanisms adopted under those agreements.[115]
Russia went on to officially recognize the self-proclaimed Luhansk and Donetsk people's republics on 21 February 2022.
[9] Following that decision, on 22 February 2022, President Putin said that the Minsk agreements "no longer existed", and that Ukraine, not Russia, was to blame for their collapse, accusing Ukraine of genocide in Donbas in his comments[116][117][10] – a statement largely seen as baseless and factually wrong by the wider world, academics studying genocide, and the United Nations.[118][119][120][121]
Russia then invaded Ukraine on 24 February 2022.[11]" - Minsk III? "On 24 August 2022, after a meeting of the Crimea Platform, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy stated that current front lines in the war would not be frozen. 'At the point where we are, we are not ready for a ceasefire.
We explained that there will be no Minsk-3, Minsk-5, or Minsk-7.
We will not play these games, we have lost part of our territories this way … it is a trap'.[122]Angela Merkel said in 2022 that the agreement had been 'an attempt to give Ukraine time' and that Ukraine used it to strengthen its armed forces.[123]"
Robert DeLong: "But I love how you speak out of one side of your mouth about Trump, and your love & belief in him, while out the other side of your mouth you go completely against what he is publicly saying about Ukraine.
You are one confused person.
You unwillingness to acknowledge the totality of the causation of this conflict, means that you harbor some sort of bias towards Russia, which I understand completely, because I fell for that myself."
Sorry, FRiend, but the confusion is 100% yours, not mine, and the reason for that is simple: you've been guzzling Russian propaganda Kool-Aide, so you mind is fried beyond normal functioning.
Now, the first thing you MUST do is sober up, stop drinking the damn Kool-Aide!
As for Trump, did you forget that Obama only sent blankets & other non-lethal aid to Ukraine, while Trump sent Javelins and other war-winning weapons?
Obviously, Trump believes he would have prevented Vlad's second invasion and could now quickly stop it, but Trump has not called for an end to Ukraine aid, to my knowledge.
Robert DeLong: "The separatists talks began after the physical attacks against them, not before.
Just in case you try to use that lie as justification."
That is a total 100% Russian propaganda lie, just the kind of lie you desperately need to stop swallowing!
The truth is, before 2014, pro-Russians ruled Ukraine and then the Maidan Revolution caused Russian stooge Yanukovych to flee to Russia.
Vlad the Invader used that as his excuse to invade, and the rest is a war of invasion by Russia against Ukraine.
- "On 22 February, the protesters were reported to be in control of Kyiv.[72][73]
The parliament voted 328–0 in favour of removing Yanukovych from office and scheduled new presidential elections for 25 May.[74]
Parliament named its chairman, Oleksandr Turchynov, as interim president on 23 February.[75]
A warrant for the arrest of Yanukovych was issued by the new government on 24 February.[76]
Over the next few days, Russian nationalist politicians and activists organized rallies in Crimea and urged the Russian government to help defend the region from advancing "fascists" from the rest of Ukraine....[77]"
"...Following the Ukrainian revolution, a secession crisis began in the Crimean Peninsula.
On 1 March 2014, Yanukovych put into writing his request that President Putin of Russia send military forces "to establish legitimacy, peace, law and order, stability and defending the people of Ukraine".[294]
On the same day, Putin requested and received authorization from the Russian parliament to deploy troops to Ukraine in response to the crisis.[261]
Russian troops accordingly mobilized throughout Crimea and the southeast of Ukraine.
By 2 March, Russian troops had complete control over Crimea.[295][296][297]"