Posted on 10/13/2022 3:50:20 AM PDT by McGruff
Ukraine’s capital region was struck by Iranian-made kamikaze drones early Thursday, officials said, sending rescue workers rushing to the scene as residents awoke to air raid sirens for the fourth consecutive morning following Russia’s major assault across the country earlier this week.
Kyiv regional governor Oleksiy Kuleba said the strike occurred in the area around the capital. It wasn’t yet clear if there were any casualties.
Deputy head of the presidential office Kyrylo Tymoshenko said on Telegram that “critical infrastructure facilities” in the area were hit, without offering any details on which ones.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
My take on the Iraq War, was that it wasn’t conditional on
WMDs being there, for it to be a worthwhile endeavor.
I am dead certain there were chemical weapons there, and I
think he moved them out of Iraq into Syria. I think those
chemical weapons were utilized in the Syrian dust-up years
back. Several times they were utilized, killing people.
A stash of Chemical weapons was stumbled upon between
Baghdad and Syria during the war. They were what we
think of as WMDs. I don’t think it takes ton after
ton for these weapons to be very dangerous, so even
though it was a mid-sized cash (from my memory), it
was still a big deal. It’s my take they were ones that
didn’t quite make their way all the way to Syria. There
was no other reason for them to be out there in the
middle of nowhere.
Iraq attacked Iran under Hussein in 1980. That war
carried on for eight years. Reagan wisely allowed
the two nations to deplete each other to the point
they were less of a threat to others.
Estimations on deaths range from a low of about 300,000
to around 2 million. For a number of years both sides
were to figured to have lost 500,000 men. In recent
years that number has come under scrutiny, and I think
it’s reasoned to think it was probably about 500,000
men total for both sides. Those are massive losses, but it
was that type of war. There was a stalemate on
advancement, and they just slugged it out.
Within about 16 months, Iraq invaded Kuwait. Hussein
was a very problematic individual. Not sure what the
driving force was, but I believe he sincerely wanted to
rule the entire Persian Peninsula, taking over the entire
region’s oil infrastructure, including wells.
Maybe it was ego. Maybe he felt like he’d get more
respect at home. Maybe he wanted to be the big man of
the region never to be forgotten.
The U. S. and 35 nations participated in sending his forces
back into Iraq, and restoring the Kuwait Kingdom.
I know people don’t like us being involved in these things,
but we can’t just let the world burn down, when we have the
ability to correct things. And yes, sometimes we won’t
get involved. Other time we will. The Iran Iraq war
is a good example. There are others out there too.
We were successful in getting Hussein back under control.
The U. N. joined us in setting limits on his troop and
aircraft movements. He could take care of business in
his own nation, but he was prevented from threatening
his neighbors by moving right up to the border with them.
During that same period of time, U. N. inspectors tried
to work with him to make sure he had no nuclear program.
He refused to cooperate. He did it in such a way that
the inspectors were frustrated, and were sure he had a
program he was hiding. I can see his objection to this,
but he was very lucky to still be in office. He should
have been happy to be the King and enjoy the remainder
of his life. He refused that option.
He began to fly outside the control zones. He flew right
up to the border of other nations. He moved large bodies
of his troops right up to those borders making it seem
he was going to invade another nation.
This was a guy that had already attacked four other nations.
Then the cat and mouse game with the U. N. came to a head.
They threw up their hands. They declared that they had
no way of proving he had a WMD program, but they also had
no way of proving he didn’t. They leaned toward him having
them.
During this time he was very boisterous on international
broadcasts trashing the U. S., Israel, and anyone else
that came to mind during his tirades.
He promised to help anyone attacking the U. S. He
promised to provide $25,000 to the family of any suicide
bomber in Israel.
The man was responsible for the deaths of between
half a million and one million people. He had used
chemical weapons on his own people. He was clearly a
determined threat to other nations as well.
A large percentage of oil moved through the region.
Europe was a large user of at that time. Hussein
was a threat to the normal order of things in the
region.
The U. S. and other nations made a case to the U. N. that
it was time to remove Hussein. Arab nations were actually
supportive of the operation. When can we remember Arab
nations signing on to a primarily U. S. enterprise
anywhere, let alone the Middle-East?
They were given a green light. They used it.
As for civilian losses, I can’t tell you how valid those
numbers are. Many terrorists were killed. They were
drawn like flies to the area, being trained and equipped
by Iran.
They traveled to Iraq from across the region to take part.
It was a holy Jihad primarily against the U. S. They were
assured they would be met in heaven with beautiful women.
What can I say.
There were no battlefield uniforms. These guys wore the
customary clothing the public did.
The folks who count the dead are often times peace groups
that want the number to be as offensive as possible, to
influence the global population that both sides are evil,
when one was clearly a terrorist effort, and the U. S.
was simply trying to get the nation quieted down and
manageable.
Even it it isn’t a peace group that develops these
numbers, we both know how leftist the international
community is. We pull their ass out of the fire, and
they take aim at us. This is how they do it.
They make the numbers look as terrible as they possibly
can. Years later, who is going to correct them? Even
our side takes a look at those numbers and say, “Me oh
my!” I’m not convinced that is called for.
I do not believe our field commanders are comfortable
with killing large numbers of civilians. Then again,
when you have a terrorist leader who only surfaces once
every few years, you have take them out or lose more
of our people or even Iraqi civilians when the urge
hits them to take out more people. Let’s remember that
these people set off bombs in markets, theaters, coffee
shops... We hit people from time to time. They do so
as a course of building fear of terrorism. That’s their
trade. It’s how they do things.
Do I care about civilians? Of course I do. I’m sure you
do. Why wouldn’t I?
I care about the Russian troops and their families. Why
would I not care about Iraqis. I just don’t think that
any civilians globally, are expendable. When I read of
a terrorist attack in Bali, I care about those people
like I would our own people.
Everyone is just trying to get through life. I want them
to be able to.
I do not think allowing the citizens of Iraq to be under
the thumb of a ruthless killer, is something we can just
laugh off.
Back to the numbers. You may see them as pristine. I
don’t. It’s hard to document them, and it’s easy to
toss the numbers into which ever category you want, if
you want to make a certain entity look bad. I think
the U. S. is a big target.
In the current situation in the Ukraine, I understate the
number of dead people. I said 50+ thousand Russians had
died. I said 25+ thousand Ukrainians had died. In troops
and civilians, I’m certain it may be three to four times
that many for the Ukraine. It may be larger for Russia
also, but the point is not to blow the numbers out as high
as possible, because one was too many.
Not one person should have died during this time period.
Not one family should have been separated for ever.
This is a tragedy. it never should have started.
I’m not trying to be unfair to Russia, but it needs to
withdraw from the Ukraine.
The Ukraine should not take advantage, but Russia agreed
to the Ukraine’s borders. It promised it would recognize
them. It hasn’t, and folks just don’t trust it anymore.
These issues were all put to rest in the 1990s. We are
rehashing them now. We should refuse to.
I can’t address what was taking place in the Eastern part
of the Ukraine because there is far too much gray area
for me to make a detailed assessment from.
It just doesn’t make sense that the international community
would overlook the Ukraine shelling civilian populations
centers for year after year. There were more dynamics to
it than what have been revealed. With more dynamics, it
might make sense. Right now it doesn’t, and I can’t
address the situation with certainty.
Thank you for your opening. I do get testy, but I remember
the days of our agreeing most of the time. That’s still
how I see you, though it might not sound like it at times.
Once the discussion on this thread starting jumping the track though, I merely pointed out the historical fact that things tend to end badly for collaborators, pointing to what happened to those in France after World War II. I like to use photographic illustrations in my posts to make my points because they are hard to refute or deny (a picture is worth a thousand words!), and that photo of the French firing squad dealing with a Nazi collaborator was actually pretty mild (they hadn't shot him yet and he was still living), compared to most others out there on that topic, which is why I chose it.
But Travis' claims to the contrary, no threat was intended nor implied, and being a member since 2011, I well know the posting rules here and abide by them, as my posting history will attest.
My apologies if my "Historical Fact" post crossed the line, or if it was perceived as a threat by Travis. It was not, and was never intended to be. It was removed by admin and that really should be the end of the matter.
From the US point of view, the 1991 conflict may have been necessary after Iraq invaded Kuwait. Although in 2003 I thought the second invasion of Iraq was also needed, now I believe that Papa Bush was wise to stop where he did, and that GWB got the US and other countries stuck in the proverbial Tar Babies of Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe I was wrong in 2003.
I certainly do not deny the sacrifices and courage of the US forces, but I believe they were poorly led. I believe that at least some of our top military and civilian leaders today are much worse.
Actually the bombing raids on Japan in WW2 broke their spirit and won the war in the Pacific - so there’s that.
The bombing of Japan is an interesting topic and I think very
few people realize that over 50% of over 100 large cities
were destroy by fire-bombing. (Those stats are presented to
peak interest, and I don’t want folks to take them as gospel.
These are not misleading numbers, but the real numbers are
somewhat different.) I think they were worse than stated here.
The interesting part is this didn’t cause Japan’s leadership
to sway away from their intent to fight to the last man.
Only Hiroshima and Nagasaki finally persuaded them that
they must stop the war, give up and sign an unconditional
surrender.
Here’s some interesting information on the topic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan#Firebombing_attacks
Hiroshima and Nagaski convinced the Emperor that Japan had to surrender. He made voice recordings of his surrender address for the people. Elements of the Japanese army tried to find the recordings to destroy them but they were unsuccessful. If they had found them and imprisoned the Emperor (”to save him from himself”) history could have been very different.
We posted at almost the same time. See #86.
Yes, and I found your comment on the recordings to be
interesting.
“The post was over the top but I don’t see it as a serious threat to anyone. Perhaps Timber rattler should chime in.”
WTF, Jim?
“This is what happens to Nazi collaborators!” directed straight at me, after repeatedly calling me such, with a photo of partisans of some kind doing an ad-hoc execution in the the woods is just “over the top?”
IT WAS A DIRECT DEATH THREAT AIMED AT ME.
Why don’t you unblock #41, and let’s do a fresh thread over the new Free Republic policy of allowing people to make direct death threats aimed at individual freepers and retrain their posting privileges.
Bill Clinton “Depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is,” was more plausible.
You call me a “Nazi collaborator,”
Then you post “This is what happens to Nazi collaborators” with a partisan firing squad execution photo.
That’s a death threat, a$$hole. And I guess death threats are tolerated on FR today, and if deemed a bit “over the top” they are simply removed by a mod.
A DEATH THREAT IS A DEATH THREAT.
Here is a great movie (free on youtube) about the first atomic bombs. There are 3 parts and the total is about 3 hours. Actors play Truman, Gen. Groves, head of the US Corps of Engineers, Oppenheimer and other scientists, Churchill, Stalin, Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the Enola Gay, Emperor Hirohito, many other high level Japanese officials, Truman's cabinet members, and many others, including film clips of Japanese who were in or near the Hiroshima blast. I thought that the portrayal of Henry Stimson, Truman's Secretary of War, was memorable because he insisted that the city of Kyoto not be targeted because of its cultural and religious significance. The music is very impressive, written by Arvo Part and others. This is the first video from the film. There are two others on youtube
That was truly a God awful post. It could not be more arrogant and wrong.
The trip must have been interesting.
My dad was serving in Japan directly after the war. He
had occasion to travel a distance on public transportation
and was offered a seat by a pregnant woman. He refused it.
He said he was treated very kindly by the people he met
there.
I appreciate the recommendation of the movie. I’ll
check it out.
I think all 3 parts are great. If you watch the first video on youtube it should show a link to part 2.
Thank you. I’m sure it will.
“...except for all the “nazi collaborators” who were shipped over to the U.S. to run its missile and high energy weapons development following the war.”
You failed to mention all the “nazi collaborators” the Soviets grabbed up and brought to the Soviet Union to run ITS missile and High energy weapons development following the war.
So, are you saying that it wasn’t okay for the US doing it, but it was okay for the Soviets doing the exact same thing?
“Oh, so now I’m a Nazi collaborator, and you are threatening to execute me?”
Where did Timber Rattler threaten to execute you? I’ve seen nothing so far on this thread that says that. Or, was it on another thread? If so, can you provide a link?
So, the thread segued into “collaborators” in eastern Ukraine, who were allegedly summarily executed. Collaborators are one’s fellow-countrymen who have sided with the country’s enemies, ESPECIALLY during time of war.
Timber Rattler said that collaborators “get what’s coming to them,” and posted a picture from the movie Red Dawn. Well, historically collaborators HAVE BEEN harshly dealt with (WWII has scores of examples).
Then, someone named DDFD jumps in and asks if — I assume it’s Timber Rattler — is accusing FR posters who dispute his narrative of being “collaborators” who deserve punishment. And apparently Timber Rattler posted a picture to you of Nazi collaborators being executed.
Is that it?
The way I read all this, Timber Rattler is just saying collaborators are dealt with very harshly, and he used as an example Nazi collaborators during WWII. It is true that collaborators are treated harshly; it has ALWAYS been true.
But what I’m not seeing is where Timber Rattler said YOU were a collaborator, and that YOU deserved execution.
I assume you are a US citizen, so absent the US being at war, and you siding with the country with which the US is at war, you don’t even meet the definition of a collaborator.
Sounds to me like you have — yet, once again — assumed facts not in evidence, jumped to conclusions, and rushed to judgment.
So, 1. I call you a Nazi collaborator.
And 2. I say, “This is what will happen to Nazi collaborators.”
Then 3. I post a photo of some kind of partisans in some woods shooting some unidentified person, allegedly, according to T.R., a Nazi collaborator.
And that is NOT a death threat, to you? Really? Is that the new standard of acceptable discourse on FR?
“So, 1. I call you a Nazi collaborator. And 2. I say, ‘This is what will happen to Nazi collaborators.’ Then 3. I post a photo of some kind of partisans in some woods shooting some unidentified person, allegedly, according to T.R., a Nazi collaborator. And that is NOT a death threat, to you? Really? Is that the new standard of acceptable discourse on FR?”
First off, you don’t need a #3, because #3 is dependent on #2, and is just an illustration of #2. The consequence of #1 is #2.
So, let’s take your proposed sequence and apply it to Timber Rattler’s posts.
First off, he DIDN’T call you a Nazi collaborator. He didn’t call you ANY KIND of collaborator. He merely pointed out how, historically, collaborators have been dealt with. And, apparently he posted a picture from the movie Red Dawn, which, to my recollection, did not deal with Nazis at all; but, rather, Cuban and Soviet communists. So, collaborators depicted in that movie would necessarily have been communist collaborators. Then, in response to a comment from someone named DDFD, Timber Rattler posted a picture of what purports to be unidentified partisans executing alleged Nazi collaborators. And from this you conclude that Timber Rattler is somehow calling you a…what? A communist collaborator (Red Dawn)? A Nazi collaborator (the partisan/execution picture)? The two are mutually exclusive, aren’t they? The eternal war between Nazis and Communists? It is clear that what Timber Rattler was pointing out was what generally happened to collaborators IN GENERAL. But, again, he did NOT call YOU a collaborator. Without that, there is no “there” there. There is no #2 and there is no #3, relative to and as a direct consequence of #1.
You jumped to a conclusion that Timber Rattler called YOU a collaborator. He didn’t.
You have a very bad habit of jumping to conclusions, and drawing faulty analogies.
Is THAT the new standard of acceptable discourse on FR? Your “Damn the torpedoes! Full rush to judgment ahead?”
For you, maybe.
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