Posted on 09/11/2022 4:39:10 AM PDT by Alas Babylon!
Do you know how many Ukrainians have been killed so far in the war? I don't, but the numbers that I have seen from Zelensky have been remarkably low for civilians. This is not the unrestrained warfare we used in WWII with the firebombings of Hamburg and Tokyo to name a couple.
Are you saying he's not trying? Because, so far, he did, but it didn't work. I think we're past the time that Russia has to complete any victory. That's why I've supported a negotiated settlement.
Putin has held off trying to destroy the infrastructure of Ukraine. He could knock out the electrical grid, destroy water treatment plants, eliminate major railroad stations, etc. Once that starts, it may be an indication that he feels that he is experiencing unacceptable military losses. Time to escalate.
Well, yeah. Ask Georgia in 2008, or for that matter Crimea in 2014 and the same year when the Russians started arming separatists in the Donbas.
You failed to mention why Russia invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea or aided the separatists. Cause and effect. The 2014 Ukrainian Revolution that deposed President Yanukovich because of his decision not to sign an agreement with the European Union started the ball rolling.
The United States and the EU openly supported the demonstrators and spoke of detaching Ukraine from what one might call the Russian (past Soviet) security sphere and attaching it to the West through EU and NATO membership. Never mind that Ukraine was unable at that time to meet the normal requirements for either EU or NATO membership. Violence started, first in the Ukrainian nationalist West, with irregular militias taking over the local offices headed by Yanukovich appointees. On February 20, 2014, demonstrations in Kyiv, which up to then had been largely peaceful, turned violent even though a compromise agreement had been reached to hold early elections. Many demonstrators were shot by sniper fire and President Yanukovich fled the country. Demonstration leaders claimed that the government’s security force, the Berkut, was responsible for initiating the shooting, but subsequent trials failed to substantiate this. In fact, most of the sniper fire came from buildings controlled by the demonstrators.
The United States and most Western countries immediately recognized the successor government, but Russia and many Russian-speaking Ukrainians considered Yanukovich’s ouster the result of an illegal coup d’état. A rebellion occurred in the Eastern provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk and Russia supported the rebels with military equipment and irregular forces.
In Crimea, local leaders declared independence and requested annexation by Russia. A referendum was conducted under the watchful eye of “little green men” infiltrated from Russia. There was no resistance by Ukrainian military or police forces, and Russia officially annexed the peninsula when the referendum resulted in an overwhelming pro-Russian vote. There was no fighting and no casualties in Crimea.
Finally, I do not view Russia's invasion in isolation, there's always factors. Even Hitler's desire to fix the German problem in Eastern Europe led to Poland. But I clearly think any invasion was wrong.
Really? Russians would argue that the U.S. is interested in territorial integrity only when its interests are served. American governments have a record of ignoring it when convenient, as when it and its NATO allies violated Serbian territorial integrity by creating and then recognizing an independent Kosovo. Also, the United Sates violated the principle when it supported the separation of South Sudan from Sudan, Eritrea from Ethiopia, and East Timor from Indonesia.
To the charge that Russia is guilty of unprovoked aggression in Ukraine, Russia would point out that the U.S. invaded Panama to arrest Noriega, invaded Grenada to prevent American citizens from being taken hostage (even though they had not been taken hostage), invaded and occupied Iraq on spurious grounds, maintains military forces in Syria without the permission of the Syrian government, targets people in other countries with drones. In other words, for the U.S. government to preach about respect for sovereignty and preservation of territorial integrity to a Russian president can seem a claim to special rights not allowed others.
Do you still support Bush/Powell/Cheney in Iraq? I don't, and it is the same reason I don't support Putin in Ukraine.
I did then, but in retrospect, I don't now. I use the metric of results and the benefits to us.
I’m with you, AB!
Great posts!
Intel is spending $20 billion to build two new chip plants in Arizona
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/23/intel-is-spending-20-billion-to-build-two-new-chip-plants-in-arizona.html
Just quoting Putin.
Why, yes they do. They control it now. Like I've been saying, declare victory and stop fighting, except for 100% defense of the territory of Donbas.
Ludicrous. One side can't declare victory while the other side is still fighting and attacking. Ukraine wants the Donbas and Crimea back. Do you expect the Russians to allow the Ukrainians to mass and maneuver to set up their attacks without preemptively disrupting them?
I stand corrected. I read it said by many Putin supporters here, repeatedly, but I didn't remember if you gave me a list of these. It's why I asked.
Dude, are you insinuating that I am a Putin supporter? WTF. Who are the "many Putin supporters" you are referring to here? Being against our involvement in the war in Ukraine does not make you a Putin supporter any more than being against our invasion of Iraq makes you a Saddam supporter. I care only about American interests no matter how much sympathy I may have for the Ukrainian people.
Still those were/are the goals of Russia. They won't be met.
Source please.
The problem with Russia vs. Ukraine is that Russia cant be trusted and the Ukraine can not be trusted. Its a conflict we should run away from as fast as possible not get bogged down into. very similar to the mid-east,too many issues to deal with for an outsider.
Good thoughts to ponder. The “hot topics” that ‘need’ to be addressed do generally get defined by the bad guys. She is so much better than most any of the other Sunday hosts that I give her credit. When I see excerpts of the other shows, I get nearly ill. And she is very bright and quick.
Oh knock it off.
stop being an ass.
You read the rules and he broke them
Please, Lord, let this be so.
With all our intel, and the knowledge that Ukraine needed so much help so badly, was there not pressure applied behind the scenes to get this maneuvered BEFORE Russia struck?
There's been quite a few Ukrainian civilians killed, wounded and displaced. That was a direct result of the Russian invasion. No one can say an exact number, but it has been far from bloodless. You can say some of the reports from both sides' are propaganda, but there's no doubt that some of the better documented ones are fairly close.
So, I'd ask, what do you think the number of civilians killed in Ukraine since 24 Feb has been?
And whatever past wars we've been in doesn't excuse anything going on today. THAT game goes to the dawn of time...
You refer to Ukraine in a vacuum, as if their citizens have not been able to decide their own fate. I simply disagree that everything that happened in 2014 was the West's meddling.
There is plenty of damage done to Ukraine and meddling by the Russians since 1991.
The 2004 Orange Revolution took place long before the Minsk agreement and was in response to pure Russian meddling. The Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko was poisoned by Russia simply for wanted to not be in their camp.
Quote: Who is Viktor Yushchenko? What you need to know about the former Ukrainian president:
The claims of a rigged election by Russian interference gained traction in the country, resulting in mass protesting taking place across Ukraine. The civil protests became known as the "Orange Revolution" and gained global attention over Russia's influence in Ukraine.
The protests were successful in having a another election between the two candidates, in which Yushchenko won with 52% of votes.
In September 2004, Yushchenko became seriously ill, so much so that he was transported to a hospital in Vienna, Austria, suffering from intestinal issues as well as face disfigurement with jaundice and pockmarks.
Tests confirmed Yushchenko had been poisoned with dioxin, a chemical found in agent orange, according to The New York Times. Doctors said his blood dioxin level was "more than 1,000 times" normal and suggested he had eaten the poison.
"It is my growing conviction that what happened to me was an act of political reprisal against a politician in opposition. The aim, naturally, was to kill me," Yushchenko said at the time.
This was happening during a time when the US was not only giving deference to Russia, but actively seeking its support in our War on Terror. George Bush (then president) said of Putin,
"I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy. We had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul; a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country."
Ludicrous. One side can't declare victory while the other side is still fighting and attacking.
Not every war ends with total victory of one side over another. In fact, most are negotiated. Again, I ask, what is Putin's end game? He has Crimea, he has the Donbas (well, minus Izum and surrounds). This would be a good time to start negotiations. Of course, the Ukes could go on fighting, but that would be happening while Russia is trying to negotiate. And before you say so, the negotiations that Putin talked about back in April, could still be talked about, but at the UN. I believe Russia still has a seat on the Permanent Council.
Ukraine is indeed the hill we will die on.
I’ve been thinking of what we can do at the grassroots level about this Great Reset barreling down the pike in our direction.
My thinking is that attempting something of a boycott against the WEF’s strategic corporate partners might be a good place to start.
Here’s a sortable list of them from their website:
https://www.weforum.org/partners/#search
I think the industry filter might be the most helpful.
The first step is to draw up a list of all their partners by sector, and the second step is to come up with a list of the best non-parnter options, where very local, small-biz alternatives might not be sufficient.
For example, very local banks or credit unions that meet your needs are probably best. But beyond that, Citizens Bank, for example, has nearly a quarter trillion in assets and it is not on their partner list. It isn’t in every region of the US, but for those areas where it is located it should be a good alternative for retail and even fairly large commercial customers.
The third step is to try to spread the word on this. The fourth step is to try to get those in other countries to adopt similar approaches to where they live.
Maybe I should start a separate thread on this.
Agreed, Conservatives playing the offended game is boring. The mask is only good for virtue grandstanding. Our church has 5 services with 1500 per service and nobody wears one.
She’s bright enough to grow into the job. We need to wish her well in that effort.
Here’s two more recent ones:
Deutsche Welle (German News in English):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlo10a2iYLc
From Denys Davydov, Ukraine, in English, Five hours ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyf3t2BgvPs
They have not done that so you have to ask why? Are the Ukrainian troops more than a match for Russian ground troops? Clearly they are. But how much does that matter?
You are over my head. I cant put all that together and come out with what i would think is a clear alternative.
Reportedly, Zelensky does not want a cease fire and refuses to negotiate,if that's the case this war could go forever. We now see the capability that the Ukrainian forces have on the ground however Russia should not be ignored as a foe.
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