Why Does The Shroud of Turin Still Exist?

Townhall.com ^ | July 28, 2019 | Myrah Kahn Adams

[Elsie]

They freely and continuously admit that they are not worthy; and that the only reason God chose them for anything, was that they were such obvious nobodies, that it would prove all the merit and worth belonged only to God.

And yet you guys PRAY to them!!!

[Luircin]

What on earth is a miraculous medal?

[Elsie]

But still, the erroneous things you say about Catholicism remain untrue whether you may be a sincere ex-Catholic, a madcap mischievous nun with a new M.Div, or an apostate wackadoo pope.

You keep calling these out; as if to make them appear; but I've yet to actually see a list of these things that supposedly have upset you so.

[metmom]

Unknown to them????

That sounds rather deceitful.

Just the sort of thing Mary would approve of, right?

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Positionally are are already in heaven by virtue of the fact that we are in Christ and that’s where He is."

Beautifully put. Profound and amazing, seriously. I may steal that. (Web patrol, take note). It reminds me of what Catherine of Siena said, another favorite:

"All the Way to Heaven is Heaven, because Christ said, 'I am the Way."

Heaven is changeless because it is timeless, and it is the realm of God who is changeless. However, until the day we die, we are in his world of change.

If it were not so --- and if "changeableness" were not a danger --- then all those many, many warnings about remaining attached to the Vine would be absurd.

He is he Vine and we are the Branches, and we are attached to Him. But we can be detached --- cut off --- by our own sinful choices, and Jesus says that if we are separated from the Vine we will wither and die.

He wants us in heaven, but He will not force us into heaven. He woos us, He loves us beyond all telling --- but He will not duct-tape your mouth, pin back your arms, drug you and and throw you into the heaven-van. THAT would be coercion. He wants love, not coercion.

That's why the Scriptures are full of "choose".

Choose life.

Choose ye this day whom you will serve.

He will instruct them in he way they should choose.

Do not envy the violent or choose any of their ways.

Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold.

Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

THe upshot of this is not: "But well.. naah never mind, you don't have a choice."

If here's no choice, there's no love: and God is all about love, and nothing less.

[Elsie]

Never heard of it before this thread. And the only information I had on it was from the posts of the trolls.

Don't you now kinda wish you'd looked up what the 'trolls' were talking about before you jumped in with your 2¢ based on a lack of knowledge?

[Elsie]

Confuse us had the answer:

Man with two clocks never know what time it is.

[Elsie]

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[aMorePerfectUnion]

“I don’t know why you continue to make generalizations about what CATHOLICS believe, a subject which you have amply demonstrated that you cannot address competently.”

I refer you to this current thread, that reveals 50% of Catholics don’t know what their church teaches about core doctrines.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3767988/posts

I’d bet metmom and the rest of us know far more than the average Catholic- having examined what we were taught and comparing it to Scripture.

Best

[metmom]

There is a choice.

You choose once, and God seals the deal.

[Hebrews 11:6]

When we obediently extend grace, we open a new channel for God’s GRACE.

[daniel1212]

Let's say the favor sought, is to enter into Heaven without any temporal punishments due to sin. The conditions would be:... breaking off all attachment to sin, even venial sin.

Meaning perfection of character according to some.

"Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected." - John Paul II, Audiences, 1999.

Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states,

"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

However, Purgatory is based upon a false premise, that of the need for perfection of character (if by grace) in order to be with God, versus penitent faith which appropriates justification, which purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) and renders one accepted in the Beloved (on His account) and positionally seated together with their Lord in Heaven, (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) from where they await the Lord's return and His final subduing of our "vile body," that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body," (Philippians 3:21)and which is the only transformative change after this life that the Scriptures speak of.

Yet this saving justifying faith, is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit, in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do. And since faith and works go together like light and heat, sometimes they are used interchangeably as to what they effect. And which obedience includes penitent confession when convicted of not pleasing the Object of his faith for salvation, the risen Lord Jesus.

But progressive practical sanctification is not the cause of the sinner's justification and acceptance in Christ, but testifies to such being a believer, evidencing "things which accompany salvation," (Hebrews 6:9) and fit to be rewarded. (Revelation 3:4) For this faith, as manifested in said obedience, God will recompense (Hebrews 10:35) under grace, even though it is God who motivates and enables all obedience, (Philippians 1:12,13) while the only thing we can and must take credit for it our disobedience.

In contrast to this salvation by effectual faith, is salvation by grace thru works, as in Roman Catholicism, in which by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God via the act of baptism, even without the required wholehearted repentant faith. (Acts 8:38; 8:36,37)

However, since the carnal nature remains and few successfully attain to complete victory over any attachment to sin and perfection of character, then most baptized souls are sent to Roman Catholic (EOs trend to reject Rome's) Purgatory to endure purifying torments to atone for sins they sufficiently failed to provide for while on earth, and become good enough to enter glory.

There is some wiggle room as regards the conditions of purgatory since what this suffering actually entails and how long are not dogmatically taught, but while salvation by grace thru faith as in sola fide means it is effectual faith being imputed for righteousness that justifies, salvation by grace thru works means that by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God, which premise either requires perfection of character in this life (and which merely being made clean in baptism would actually not effect) or postmortem purifying torments.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc. (City of God XXI.24.)

And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness".

However, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

In addition, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is specious, since testing of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of here development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6)

And even in making the Lord "perfect" as in experiencing testing, being "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin," (Hebrews 4:15) then it was in this world: "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (Hebrews 2:10)

[Elsie]

Just the sort of thing Mary would approve of, right?

Well; in 1840...

...other interlopers were advancing on the scene:

1840
December: The Mormons receive a city charter establishing expansive home rule and a local militia. After the first mayor is excommunicated, Smith becomes both mayor and military leader. Nauvoo quickly grows and within four years is nearly the size of Chicago, the population bolstered by an influx of Mormon converts from Europe.

 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/mormons-timeline/

[Elsie]

Heaven is changeless because it is timeless,

Sorry girls; but your hairstyle will never change and you'll be stuck with that old furniture for ETERNITY!!

[metmom]

Never heard of it before this thread. And the only information I had on it was from the posts of the trolls.

Oh? And because you think certain people are *trolls* that precludes them from being right about Catholicism?

How is it that non-Catholics seem to know more about Catholicism and what it teaches than Catholics do?

FWIW, I had one of those scapular things when I was just a little kid. I don't know where I got it and who gave it to me, but I do remember not being able to wear it because it was made of wool and I was allergic to it, so my mom put it aside.

I have no idea what happened to it.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

"A changed life is all the evidence an unbeliever needs to see in someone to know that the claims of Christ are true."

What you're saying there is this: An unbelieving person will "know that the claims of Christ are true" merely by seeing a "changed life" in someone else.

1) Has your faith in Christ changed you? 2) According to your own words an unbelieving person will "know that the claims of Christ are true" merely by seeing a "changed life" in someone else. 3) Thus, if your life was changed by belief in Christ, then - ACCORDING TO YOUR WORDS - unbelievers around you will know Christ's claims are true merely by seeing your changed life. 4) Has that happened? Perhaps sometimes it has. Has it happened to EVERY unbeliever you know, you work with, you interact with, etc.? No, it hasn't now has it?

Everything I said it true.

You wrote:

"I never said that seeing the changed life of someone would guarantee the conversion of the unbeliever."

Oh, no?

You wrote: "A changed life is all the evidence an unbeliever needs to see in someone to know that the claims of Christ are true."

"All the evidence" isn't a guarantee, huh?

[Mark17]

Here is yours bro. 😁

614 posted on 7/31/2019, 8:56:39 AM by Elsie

[ealgeone]

Dude. Your fighting the wind mill again. The Rules are still in force.

[grey_whiskers]

Pauli had several theories, none of which are found in the Bible except in Psals 14:3 and 53:3.

I didn't mention his theories, only one of his snarks.

God did not move any of the apostles to make much of keeping any such relics, so why should you?

You don't know that. The most you can say is that the New Testament doesn't mention it happening.

And, newsflash. Sola Scriptura was not a doctrine of the Christianity historically.

It's a later development. Ironically enough, one taught by men. It's not found in the Bible.

The controversy over the hypothesized shroud is amusing??

Your air of pretension and superciliousness is amusing.

To wit:

So am I (PhD in it), and observe that however and whenever this piece of linen cloth received the markings discernable on it, some of they may have been by blood-staining it (which would have been through and through), but widely and generally the visible differentiation must be due to the formation of either molecular color centers, and/or local carbonization of the cellulosic flaxen fibers.

Yeah, the coloring of the image is local to the fibers, on the order of a angstrom or so thick. It's not an external chemical substance such as paint.

Said image is also separate from the bloodstains; which have been tested by multiple independent methods during the 1978 STURP study.

From a paper by Adler in 1981:

TESTS CONFIRMING THE PRESENCE OF WHOLE BLOOD ON THE SHROUD 1) High Fe in blood areas by X-ray fluorescence

2) Indicative reflection spectra

3) Indicative microspectrophotometric transmission spectra

4) Chemical generation of characteristic porphyrin fluorescence

5) Positive hemochromagen tests

6) Positive cyanmethemoglobin tests

7) Positive detection of bile pigments

8) Positive demonstration of protein

9) Positive indication of albumin specifically

10) Protease tests, leaving no residues

11) Microscopic appearance as compared with appropriate controls

12) Forensic judgement of the appearance of the various wound and blood marks

Any shading perceived as depth of features must be studied to determine how the color centers were formed, and whether or not by radiation damage from an external source.

They don't *know* any putative mechanism, other than that the image is a 2-D image of a 3-D surface; collimated vertically without deviation (e.g. not a "point source"), and with the inverse intensity of the image relating to 3-D data. (They still can't create, or re-create that effect, today).

In analyzing the markings, any resulting from blood stains should be clearly localized and separated from other visible marking, and each studied as separate entities.

Already been done.

First, according to Adler, mentioned above, the stains are not from fresh blood, but from exudate; and there is no image beneath the blood stains, so the blood stains pre-dated the image.

Second, they tested for the pigments from paints: not coincident with the image.

Third, scanning electron microscopy of the filaments, showed that the image is on only the top surface of the fiber, IIRC something akin to a Maillard reaction. Not something a medieval forger would have known how to do.

Oh, and there is an image of a coin over one I with Caesar misspelled; and the nails went through the wrists, even though everyone back then thought that crucifixions were done by nails through the palms.

Regarding exposure to excessive heat in the silver container, was any of the cloth exposed to silver vapor or other to the effect of other metallic impurities in the molten (~1000 oC) state. And what about the vapors and particulate smoke generated by burnt natural fibers in the heating of the silver coffin?

That's not going to help much in any direction, since we don't know the details of the fire (intensity, duration, whether the entire casket was evenly heated,...or, for that matter, whether the fire even got hot enough to melt the silver.

Of course, the worshiping of this piece of cloth has prevented its submission for direct thorough examination, non-destructive or destructive, by thoughtful and experienced professionals.

*Snerk*. It's a unique in all human history artifact. You can't call Grainger and get another one. Of *course* they want to be careful with it.

What is patently obvious in this matter is that the superstition of Roman Catholicism proceeding from the papal oversight has so thoroughly ruled that impartial analysis and impassive conclusions have not been permitted.

Which is why several members of the STURP team who studied in 1978, who were (and who remained) Jewish, nonetheless became convinced of the Shroud's authenticity: because their original tests were designed to suss out what *type* of painting it was, and they found out first that it was not paint, and secondly, they could neither reproduce the image nor come up with a mechanism for the observed features of the image: features which would have been unknown (beyond the state of the art) to medieval forgers.

Getting embroiled in argumentation over it is asinine. The essence to development of spiritual maturity is not even zero--it is negative, fit only for the natural soulish human who cannot receive the deep things of the Spirit of God, because they are foolishness to him/her. The Shroud of Turin has no spiritual significance. Engrossment with it is entirely carnal, not to be disregarded, but only fit for those whose perception and belief is limited by their lack of regeneration in the Spirit.

Don't blaspheme, 'kay? If it does happen to be genuine, it's a direct touchstone to the crucifixion and (presumably, given the image and all) the Resurrection.

And even if not, one can still treat it as a work of pious Art, as an aid to devotion.

[MHGinTN]

Sounds so high minded ... but you really do not know what you are talking about: "Heaven is changeless because it is timeless, and it is the realm of God who is changeless."

EVERYTHING GOD HAS CREATED in this Universe, including all three heavens, is inside the Creation. God exists outside of aqnd inside of His creation. EVERYTHING in the Universe God has created has some aspect of time and some aspect of space: without time, evnets do not occur; without space a thing does not exist.

Your specious insinuation that you could break God's seal upon your spirit is ignorance, so it should be called out. Once God has your spirit sealed by His Holy Spirit there is no thing that can break His sea, no human thing you can do can change the family HE BIRTHS YOU INTO.

There is an implicit arrogance in asserting that you can break His seal ... 'you insinuate that you can make the seal be there by working for it, so you can be responsible for the seal to remain'. That contradicts the Word of God. Period. Yet you do it so high-mindedly that you believe you are serving God's agenda.