Posted on 07/28/2019 6:02:04 AM PDT by Kaslin
"In the interests of accuracy, is that what you believe? That once saved, you cannot lose your salvation? (Because if that is not your belief, then please explain what a person would have to do or fail to do, to lose their salvation.)"This ("what YOU believe") is a subject in which I guess you would be an expert.
I don't know why you continue to make generalizations about what CATHOLICS believe, a subject which you have amply demonstrated that you cannot address competently.
"Catholics as a whole do not comprehend..."Nonsense."IOW, they [Catholics] can't be trusted to do it on their own..."
"Roman Catholicism throws the burden of maintaining the person's salvation on them ..."
"It [Catholicism] is salvation and sanctification under coercion ..."
" Catholicism misrepresents God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness...."
"They [Catholics] teach that God's mercy must be begged for and groveled for ..."
"[Cathholics supposedly believe] "we must clean up our act first and become good enough to *merit* grace and forgiveness.(etc etc)..."
I asked for what you believe, and you gave me five paragraphs of your opinion of what Catholics believe, so distorted it would be Babylon-Bee-worthy, except that I don't think you intended it as self-parody.
If I had a nickel for every time I asked FReepers to tell me what THEY believe, and not bizarrely expand upon their view of what *I* believe, --- metmom, I could have a freezer full of Fudge Ripple Ice Cream and a couple reams of printer paper.
Whee! A dream come true!
From your exposition of your own belief, you seem to be saying that as a believer you could not sin, and could not even want to sin. "Why would I want to?"
I see no evidence that that is true. NT writers double down on the possibility of sin's recurrence.
1 Timothy 1:19If this rejection of faith were not possible, the Apostles' frequent exhortations and warnings TO BELIEVERS against sin would be unneeded and ridiculous. "Sin? Why would I want to?"
"Hold(ing) on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith."
I'm NO expert of Evangelical apostasy, I am NOT and do not want to be involved in their business--- so I abstain from commenting on all that. But riddle me this: Why would Josh Harris or Franky Schaeffer or any of the avalanche of other Evangelical apostates "want to" turn apostate?
At least I know that some can "reject" good conscience and suffer "shipwreck" of the Faith. I know sin happens. I know, too, that the Church, the House of God, like everyone, will face the Judge.
You forget metmom was a former Roman Catholic. I think she understands RC theology.
Gigglicious! Look up “non sequitur.”
You expect more from a dead soul who now mocks and derides to avoid the Truth?
It’s all I need in this case.
The promise was made to the carmelites, not to you.
They do not understand the new birth and the flesh and the relation between the two is the only thing I can figure.
Romans 7 explains that struggle quite well.
Nonsense.
It says what it says.
Is it a lie or not?
If someone dies wearing it, will it keep them from hellfire?
Who made the promise?
The cloth, all by itself?
...the words on the cloth were sewn or embroidered on, as a memento of the promise.
That promise was not to everyone, but to the carmelite.
Jesus rose from the dead, and the vast majority of people reject Him.
You read way too much into what people say.
I have never claimed any believer does not sin.
Nor does the new born again nature WANT to sin.
Romans 7 explains the struggle.
I make observations based on replies that I've received. Those are the conclusions I have come to.
I also remember very clearly what I thought and what I was taught as a Catholic.
I got saved late enough in life to have more than adequate exposure to Catholicism and Catholic teaching.
Not to mention having some priests and a nun in the family as well.
Catholics are not snowing us who have been raised in Catholicism. We know better.
So technically, while true that nothing you can do or not do can cost you your salvation, the believer would ask, *Why would I want to*?
So St. Paul explains in Romans 7...the struggle.
And by your earlier argument, no real believer would ever struggle with sin.
So by your infallible judgment, St. Paul must not have been a real Christian.
Which was the reason for my follow-up posts 563 and 568.
Which is exactly why I brought up Romans 7, because you were looking like a liberal Democrat or an SJW, getting carried away on your own rhetoric.
What is written on there is written on there.
You tell me.
It’s a Catholic thing.
Is it a lie or not?
Will someone who dies wearing it suffer hellfire or not?
So what about all the people who are told that it would do that for them and they are not carmelites?
So that blanket statement written on there cannot apply to ALL people.
Where does it tell them that?
("What is more important, the gold on the altar or the altar that makes the Gold holy?")
Therefore, one should be guided by the actual promise itself, rather than a memoriam of the promise.
And the original promise, was to the carmelites.
That’s right.
People love their sin and do not want to submit to Christ.
What Catholics fail to understand is that even the best Saint in its stockpile still deserves to go to hell...The only way any of us could deserve heaven is to become completely sinless...But that won't work either...Because we were born in sin...
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
There's the answer but Catholics and many others don't accept what they are reading...The truth is far beyond the comprehension of those not born again...
You'll notice Paul DID NOT SAY, Why shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therin?
Paul said HOW shall we....And the answer is, we shall not live any longer therein...How's that possible, you say???
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Not into his life...Baptism doesn't give us life)...
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
We no longer have a body of sin...
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Get it yet???
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This is how we will end up at the 'Bema' judgment seat of Jesus Christ and not be penalized for any sins we committed...The record of those sins will be burnt up...
Believe in Jesus.
Not his rags, not his crown, not the shiny cross on the wall, not the perfumed and pampered men in Rome, not the Televangelist asking for pieces of silver.
Believe in Jesus.
He believes in you.
You're incorrect.
Read the writings of the Saints. They freely and continuously admit that they are not worthy; and that the only reason God chose them for anything, was that they were such obvious nobodies, that it would prove all the merit and worth belonged only to God.
I don't see that in the scriptures...But access to God's grace is given to all people
Tit_2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
So how does one get into this state of sanctifying grace???
Roman Catholic writers say you HAVE to go through Mary but that is not supported by the New Testament.
The rot goes deep in Roman Catholicism.
| The Glories of Mary | Romans 10:5-13 NASB | |
| Saint Anselm says, ‘that as it is impossible for one who is not devout to Mary, and consequently not protected by her, to be saved, so is it impossible for one who recommends himself to her, and consequently is beloved by her, to be lost.’ Saint Antoninus repeats the same thing, and almost in the same words: ‘As it is impossible for those from whom Mary turns her eyes of mercy, to be saved, so also are those towards whom she turns these eyes, and for whom she prays, necessarily saved and glorified.’ Consequently the clients of Mary will necessarily be saved. (p184) | 5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BEDISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”. |
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| But, on the other hand, Mary says in the words applied to her by the church, “He that hearkeneth to me shall not be confounded;’ that is to say, he who hearkeneth to what I say shall not be lost. On which Saint Bonaventure says, ‘O Lady, he who honours thee will be far from damnation.’ And this will still be the case, Saint Hilary observes, even should the person, during the past time have greatly offended God. ‘However great a sinner he may have been,’ says the saint, ‘if he shews himself devout to Mary he will never perish.’(p185) | 14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. |
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Bible quotes from NASB
RCC position on Mary from The Glories of Mary, translated from the Italian of St Alphonsus De; Liguori, Founder of the Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer, by A Father of the Same Congregation LONDON: Printed for the Redemptorist Fathers, St Mary’s, Clapham, Surrey; to be had of J.J. Wallwork, 42, Great Marlborough Street, Regent Street, and of all Booksellers. MDCCCLII p184-185.
https://books.google.com/books?id=7uwCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=All+power+is+given+to+thee+in+Heaven+and+on+earth,+so+that+at+the+command+of+Mary+all+obey-even+God&source=bl&ots=myZ-FaiMh7&sig=ivbaVW-mCAErqzlDyoebpOj0EJE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrmYK1rcTYAhVPtFMKHVeRBdAQ6AEIOzAG#v=twopage&q&f=false
He was canonized in 1839 by Pope Gregory XVI and proclaimed a Doctor of the Church by Pope Pius IX in 1871.
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