Posted on 07/28/2019 6:02:04 AM PDT by Kaslin
In an imaginary “ranking” of Christian topics that elicit the most fervent discussions, Jesus Christ is No. 1. But near the top is the Shroud of Turin — believed by millions of Christians to be the authentic burial cloth of Jesus. This “ranking” was inspired by you — Townhall readers who wrote over 500 impassioned comments in response to my July 21 piece, “Shroud of Turin: New Test Concludes 1988 ‘Medieval Hoax’ Dating Was a Fraud.”
I purposely read all your comments to gain insight into my role as an adviser and fundraiser for a groundbreaking exhibition about the Shroud of Turin at the Museum of the Bible in Washington D.C. This spectacular museum, among the largest and highest rated in the city, is located only three blocks from the Capitol. And just prior to the January 20, 2021, presidential inauguration is when this high-tech Shroud exhibit is scheduled to open.
Threaded throughout hundreds of your responses about all aspects of the Shroud was one overarching theme summarized by these three comments:
“Anyone who requires physical evidence to underpin their faith doesn’t understand the concept of faith.”
“JESUS CHRIST died for all. HE is what is important. Making such a fuss about this piece of cloth is a distraction from HIS work of SALVATION.”
“I respectfully submit that the only ‘relic’ which really matters is the one which was left us on that first Easter morning: The tomb is empty! He is Risen! He is Risen indeed! Alleluia!”
Of course, “He is Risen” is also the foundation of my Christian faith, (made slightly more complicated by having been born Jewish). But I feel compelled to discuss and explore the comment that reads in part, “…such a fuss about this piece of cloth...”
And my response is simple: The Shroud of Turin exists because HE exists. An answer that echoes what God said to Moses, “I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you” (Exodus 3:14).
Thus, the existence of the Shroud of Turin raises two questions that I will attempt to address: First, what exactly is the Shroud? And second, a deeper dive into “Why does the cloth exist?”
The Shroud of Turin is a 14.5-by-3.5-foot linen cloth with a linear front to back mirror image of a crucified man. The Shroud has the distinction of being the most studied artifact in the world, yet the cloth’s numerous mysteries remained unexplained by modern science.
At this moment the Shroud lies in a fireproof box in the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy, as it has continuously since 1578. (But secretly relocated between 1939 and 1946 when Italian authorities feared Hitler was seeking possession.)
Dating the Shroud has been controversial and the subject of my July 21 piece.
Among Shroud historians, there is no dispute that in 1352, over 200 years before the Shroud was housed in Turin, Geoffrey DeCharney displayed the cloth in Lirey, France marking the beginning of the Shroud’s documented "modern" dating.
There is also much circumstantial Shroud evidence through art, artifacts, and coins that pre-dates 1352. Moreover, scientifically verified botanical evidence found on the cloth in the form of pollen, dust, flowers, and even the weave and type of linen traces the Shroud back to first-century Jerusalem.
The cloth with its mysterious properties has survived wars, invasions and the ravages of time including numerous fires — most recently in 1997 at its home cathedral in Turin.
Most harrowing was the 1532 fire in Chambéry, France. Miraculously the entire cloth was not destroyed but left those distinctive linear markings along both sides of the Shroud that we see today. Hard to imagine, but the linen cloth was stored in a silver box, folded in 48 layers, when drops of molten silver burned through the cloth’s outer folded edges.
The point is, against all the odds, the Shroud exists. And, as stated earlier, because He exists. There is also a significant Bible-based reason found in the Gospel of John known as “Doubting Thomas” (John 20:24-31).
But first, a “guest” who will explain this passage needs a proper introduction:
It turns out that the many Townhall readers who commented about not needing the Shroud’s “physical evidence to underpin their faith,” represent a large swath of Christian believers. I learned this when asking Russ Breault— my fellow Shroud exhibit team colleague, and a world-renowned Shroud expert and speaker — if he had experienced similar attitudes after over 30 years of hosting his popular “Shroud Encounters” to sell-out crowds.
Breault replied:
“I get that statement all the time! When someone says, ‘I don't need the Shroud for my faith,’ I usually say, ‘That is fantastic! But that doesn't mean the Shroud was not meant for someone else.’ ”
Breault continued: “In the Doubting Thomas story, Jesus pronounced a blessing on those who ‘believe yet have not seen,’ but Jesus did not condemn Thomas for his unbelief. In fact, a week after the Resurrection, Jesus appeared a second time, and the first person he spoke to was Thomas, who was not there to witness Jesus’ first appearance. Jesus then quotes Thomas' words back to him, ‘Thomas, thrust your hand into my side and place your fingers into my nail wounds and be not faithless but believe.’
At this point, Thomas — forever known as "Doubting Thomas" — makes the strongest profession of faith in the New Testament saying, "My Lord and my God." Then Jesus pronounced a blessing on those who can believe without seeing. So we are blessed if we can believe without seeing, but we are not cursed if we can't get there without some additional evidence.
Therefore, perhaps the Shroud is a silent witness to the world offering all of humanity the same opportunity Jesus gave to Thomas. In some proverbial sense by looking at the Shroud, we too can thrust our hand into His side and place our fingers into His nail wound and find our faith in the process.”
Thank you, Russ! And now my final thoughts for Townhall commenters.
If blessed with great faith, you are free to ignore or downplay the image on the Shroud showing Christ’s great suffering and victory over death. Yet, take comfort in knowing that the Shroud is there to supplement or reinforce the faith of others while potentially witnessing to the ever-increasing number of Doubting Thomases found throughout the world.
In the end, I believe that the Shroud exists as proof of God’s greatest gift to mankind —the Lord Jesus Christ — who lives and reigns forever and ever. Alleluia!
(Now, let the comments begin!)
That is what the encyclical says, akin to many others, and which I show to RCs, yet RCs debate whether encyclicals (as well as Bulls) are infallible, and papal teaching also teaches that "the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors" (VEHEMENTER NOS, Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906) and under the RC model she is her own interpreter, and V2 "clarifies such Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the church there is no salvation) teaching, stating:
Vatican Two: Lumen Gentium 16: "The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (Cf. Jn. 16:13) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical [Protestant] communities...
"They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood." — LUMEN GENTIUM: 16.
Dominus Iesus: " …those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.” “All who have been justified by Faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ: they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” Dominus Iesus: "...these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation...” — http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
CCC 838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."
Thus the question for you is, do you reject such teachings of V2 which you judge as being contrary to historical RC teaching? What about pope Francis: is he even a valid pope?
And since Scripturally, what one does and effects constitutes the evidence of what one believes, and Rome manifestly considers even proabortion, prosodomite public figures to be members in life and in death - and which you must own unless you reject the judgment of your pastors - then why should we conservative evangelicals leave our conservative fellowships and become brethren in which an unholy amalgamation?
I'm not a parrot. (I'm an adult convert.)
So let me ask you what your this polemical assertion is to prove, what is the basis for your assurance of truth?
The answer is the same as the basis for Sola Scriptura: faith. You might want to read up on the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30).
God often *allows* evil for much longer than people are comfortable with.
And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God.
That's over simplified. And it sounds like the Phariseeical tactic of forcing a false dichotomy, then demanding "answer yes or no."
Recall all the times in Scripture, that Jesus talks about the lost:
the parable of the lost talent, the Prodigal Son, the sheep fallen in the pit on the Sabbath.
And St. Paul's writing about "after I have left you, fierce wolves will come, not sparing the flock." or for that matter, the Passage in Phillippians 3, about those who live as enemies of the Cross...their God is their belly, their mind set on earthly things.
Or 1 Timothy 1. ("who have upset the faith of some, saying that the resurrection is past already.")
In other words, apostasy, heresy, and worldliness were rife in the Church even during the times of the writing of the New Testament.
Think of the Church as a *bulwark*: a pen for the Sheep. And remember Jesus statement about "the hireling cares nothing for the Sheep."
The interesting thing, is that in reading the lives of several different saints, often they received direct revelations from God, and *strong* impressions, causing great agony if not followed, to pray on certain topics.
The rules of their order, compelled them to go their superiors with these revelations.
Often the superiors spent *years* deliberately ordering them to refrain from these prayers.
And yet, the Spirit told them to obey their superiors, at the cost of great anguish to themselves.
Doing such produced great fruit in the souls of the Saints; but it also allowed (in mysterious ways, which God did not divulge) great power and latitude for God to work in the hearts of the Superiors, so that the prayers ended up being spread wider than before, and to more effect.
Think of Saul vs. David, and 1 Samuel 15 "to obey is better than sacrifice": Saul got in trouble by not waiting for the prophet, and sacrificing on his own, jumping the gun.
Sometimes I think a lot of the Protestant churches are like that; "Gee God, you're too slow on fixing all these problems, so we're gonna do it" and that has morphed (over time) into "well, I felt it was the right thing, so I went and did it. You can't judge me!"
But on the other hand, you have the Apostles telling the Jewish leaders after the healing of the lame man in Acts: "We must obey God rather than men."
It's rather analogous to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in quantum mechanics, where one can measure either momentum or position, but not to infinite precision, or to the wave-particle duality: Law vs. Grace, Submission to God vs. Submission to Men vs. Submission to authority in fear of God.
You can find plenty of verses on those in St. Paul if you look.
The New Testament was largely composed of letters written by Apostles (Paul, Peter, John) to individuals or to Churches. And the issue is not always "How DARE you contradict Scripture!" as "rightfully handling the word of truth" : it's scriptural, but just maybe the passage you're quoting, was written to recipient X, and recipient X was confronting error Y or sin Z. And the person today you're quoting it to, is actually dealing with situation Delta.
There's such a thing as a sheep being lost on the hillside; or a herd of sheep.
Not everything is a matter of rebellion, as being lost, misunderstanding, or many other ways of "missing the mark."
Also, God is concerned with the Church (corporately, His bride) as well as individuals. We are to meet together; pray for one another, instruct and admonish one another.
It's not a matter of a bunch of Caped Superheroes riding in to save the day (according to what *they* know is right, and everyone else is just wrong). It's a corporate matter; the body of Christ, as it says in Ephesians 4: 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. And the same thing goes with prayers and Church services. "Do not quench the Spirit" vs. "Let all things be done decently and in order."
Does that make any sense?
(*) There is much more to say about revelations within the Church, and Marian apparitions.
I'll just give one quote out of context, to illustrate the flavor as it applies to this discussion.
Stop and seriously consider the following words Our Lady gave in Medjugorje recently:
August 2, 2011
“…As individuals, my children, you cannot stop the evil that wants to begin to rule in this world and to destroy it…”
…Our Lady warned both the Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda, through Her apparitions in Kibeho, telling them not to hate. It was foreshown by Her in the Medjugorje apparitions…but Our Lady could not help them. On April 24, 1994, 19 days into what would be more than 100 days of the Rwanda genocide, Our Lady gave Her monthly message to Medjugorje visionary Marija. Our Lady said:
“…if you do not pray and if you are not humble and obedient to the messages I am giving you, I cannot help you…”
Sister Mary of St. Peter, a Carmelite nun, recounted (I don't have the book in front of me, and a quick Google search didn't find it; I have to get ready for work) how the Spirit spoke to her, telling her how she could tell if the messages were from Him: if they led to humility and she was without resentment when they were brushed aside.
You may have noticed controversy about the Medjugorje phenomenon. Pope Francis has given the green light for Catholics to organize pilgrimages to Medjugorje, a site of alleged Marian apparitions, though the Church has not yet given a verdict on the apparitions’ authenticity.
This is an incoherent stance in which Pope Francis (as usual) manages to be self-contradictory and ambiguous. This is in example of what has repeatedly shown him to be incompetent as a teacher: a very worrying development.
As for the intercessory role of saints in heaven, that is an aspect of the efficacy of the prayers of ALL the saints, in heaven as well as on earth, as all are members of the Body of CHrist, Who alone gives every grace and benefit.
This is solidly grounded in New Testament Apostolic doctrine about (1) the efficacy of prayer and (2) the Body of Christ.
You can say you don't believe in the efficacy of the prayers of saintly men and women, no matter whether they be in heaven or on earth --- but this conclusion is not required by Scripture. Rather, I would say, it is incompatible with it, inasmuch as it denies he ongoing spiritual significance of the Body of Christ.
Please show where I am incorrect.
All of the statements from the apparition noted are in contradiction of Scripture.
IF you don't see that then we have a lot more ground to go over.
Nothing from a purported Aparition which contradicts Scripture is doctrine, and an anti-doctrine apparition cis not to be approved.
You're attempting to hide behind definitions, defined by Roman Catholicism I might add, to avoid dealing with this issue.
Rome has given approval of these apparitions. Pope's have spoken approvingly about these.
This is an incoherent stance in which Pope Francis (as usual) manages to be self-contradictory and ambiguous.
Unknowingly, you have encapsulated the Roman Catholic position on these apparitions.
You can say you don't believe in the efficacy of the prayers of saintly men and women, no matter whether they be in heaven or on earth --- but this conclusion is not required by Scripture. Rather, I would say, it is incompatible with it, inasmuch as it denies he ongoing spiritual significance of the Body of Christ.
No believer denies the efficacy of praying for each other. However, our prayers are for people here on earth.
Our departed loved ones are already departed. We cannot pray for them at this point. Their eternal destination has already been determined. We cannot change that.
When we pray we are to pray TO God and only God. That is what is evidenced in the New Testament.
“…if you do not pray and if you are not humble and obedient to the messages I am giving you, I cannot help you…”
You cite an apparition not approved by the Vatican...at least not yet.
But regardless of what the apparition said or whether it is approved by Rome, which would mean Rome continues to affirm these non-Scriptural apparitions....that apparition cannot help you. It will only lead you away from Christ.
Whether the Shroud is real or not, the premise that faith is not based upon a degree of evidential warrant is wholly unScriptural, yet this need not be by sight.
God did call Israel to covenant with Him until after He had manifestly revealed Himself, while all held John the baptizer to "be a prophet indeed" based upon his holy character and convicting Scriptural words, even though he no miracles.
And it is was the testimony of the Resurrection of Christ that Paul states gave faith (pistis) unto all. (Act 17:31)
Meanwhile, the judgment of the Gentiles in Rm. 1 is based upon them having received revelations of the reality of God (For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans 1:20), and acting contrary to the innate moral sense, "the work of the law written in their hearts," Romans 2:15) by which man can "by nature the things contained in the law," by God's grace, which would lead them to "the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world," (John 1:9) True Light, Christ, glory to God.
However, the premise of a degree of evidential warrant for faith does not mean God will always do what He did for Israel in the Exodus, making it unmistakably manifest that He was real and leading them (which, contrary to Muhammad and his mere "visions," was before commissioning them to exterminate the Canaanites), and which still saw people in practice responding like atheists. But God gives to everyone a degree of light and evidential warrant for faith, and the judgment of souls will be "according to Truth," based upon the light and grace one has.
Which leaves those who were enlightened and realized the power of God and turned away as being the most accountable. (Hebrews 6:1-8; 10:25-39; Gal. 5:1-4)
You’re trolling.
continuing to prove my observations of many Roman Catholics in these discussions.
You're trolling.
Then say something about it!
Do you agree or not?
Interesting that in the lists of gifts of the Holy Spirit, teaching and preaching are mentions, but there is no such thing as a *gift of interpretation*.
What a laugh.
So much of Scripture is so easy to understand even if you read it just at face value.
Do not murder.
Do not steal.
Do not commit adultery.
Call no man father.
Love God.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Husbands treat your wives as well as your own body and as Christ treated the church.
Do not eat blood.
It's not rocket science.
The only reason people feel the need to *interpret* Scripture is because they don't like what it says and want to change it's meaning so that it means what they say it means and not what it says.
Let me know if you get an answer.
Catholicism makes the adherents to that religion ripe to swallow the signs and lying wonders soon to be spewed out upon humanity, AFTER the Body of Christ made up of all believers throughout History and alive now are removed to escape the hour of testing coming upon the whole earth.
Teachers in catholiciism, teaching acceptance of the apparitions or conveying innocence in the apparitional genre are preparing the Catholics to be ripe for the deceptions.
Lending credulity to apparitional statements and signs points to the earth dwellers who are the ones left behind after JESUS descends to the first Heaven to gather us to Himself and return to the Father's House.
It is GOD Who promised to keep us from the time of the testing inflicted by the wrath of God. Scripture refers to this deliverance from the wrath to come. Denying the references is a cottage industry among 'Catholic Scholarship'. That too prepares Catholics to swallow the great Lie which is coming immediately following The Removal, the Snatching away of the Body of Christ which has been growing since Pentecost.
The more insidious the insistence that there is no such thing as The Rapture of The Body of Christ Believers, the closer is the sudden snatching away. That's why I caution Catholic DO NOT ACCEPT THE MARK OF THE BEAST when it is commanded to you.
In the Revelation of John, that first white horse rider is no friend of humanity; with his arrival a fourth of the earth's population is killed! The entire seven years of Tribulation / Time of Jacob's Troubles is God pouring outr HIS WRATH. Astonishingly, a number so great John could not count them are saved and transported to Heaven DURING the Tribulation.
Then I trust you’ll get back to me after criticizing St. Paul for calling Timothy his son, or for calling himself a father in faith to the Corinthians? Because clearly, that’s hard evidence of Paul denying the words of Jesus.
Jesus said, "Call no man father."
Paul called someone a SON; and called himSELF a father.
Not quite the same; is it?
I will give you credit though; for coming close to a Biblical explanation for a clear example of not doing what the Savior has told you.
Oh, give it up, Mrs. Don-O.
He did not mean that by any means and it takes some kind of special misconstruing of words to even begin to read that out of the comment he made.
That was unworthy of you.
He never claimed that ‘JESUS’ said it.
But the implication worked; didn’t it!
Welcome to RomeSpeak 101. Enjoy your stay; marvel at the artwork.
Paul called the Galatians "foolish" for their errors.
Using your reasoning Paul was "trolling" the Galatians.
If these conversations are too much for you head to the caucus threads.
You can join the two other Roman Catholics who post there; though I doubt one would agree with you. That poster doesn't even agree with his/her fellow RCs on matters.
Totally clueless.
If you don't think that seeing the fruit of the Spirit manifest in someone's life is not evidence enough to convince someone that the claims of Christ are true, then you apparently have never met any real Christians.
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To: Elsie Sorry Mark.
You awake? Yes, I am awake, cuz I had to get up to answer your post. 😁 It is now 7:12 AM in my neck of the woods. |
Uh...
Looks like FR disagrees with the time...
(No; I never did get an answer about the time on FR)
I'd hate to admit that I was that dumb.
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