[DiogenesLamp]

He’s made that claim before on other threads, that the reason they rebelled doesn’t matter. Claiming that because there is a natural right to rebellion...

Get it right. "Natural right to *INDEPENDENCE*."

As you have so elequontly pointed out, the founding fathers didn’t think so.

He has not "so eloquently" pointed this out, because it is clearly incorrect factually. As Franklin said, "One of the greatest tragedies of life is the murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of brutal facts. "

The founders put no conditions on the right to independence. They listed their "causes" as a courtesy, and they clearly tell you they are only listing their causes out of "respect for the opinions of mankind."

One is not required to respect the opinions of mankind in order to exercise a fundamental right. One does not have to explain one's reasons for wanting to disassociate from people whom they saw as exploiting them.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "He has not "so eloquently" pointed this out, because it is clearly incorrect factually."

Actually, DiogenesLamp has no idea what I may have "so eloquently" pointed out because, by his own admission he refuses to read my posts.
So his claim that I am "clearly incorrect factually" is merely an argument from ignorance -- he doesn't know it to be true (won't read it) so claims it's false.

DiogenesLamp: "As Franklin said, 'One of the greatest tragedies of life is the murder of a beautiful theory by a gang of brutal facts.' "

Franklin was indeed the author of many pithy quotes, but this one in particular is not cited by more reputable quote sources -- it sounds "off" for his time & station.

Regardless, your Marxist smearing of 1860s Republicans, especially Lincoln, are far from a "beautiful theory", they are ugly & disgraceful but somehow immune to whatever "brutal facts" may discredit them.

DiogenesLamp: "The founders put no conditions on the right to independence.
They listed their "causes" as a courtesy,"

Of course they did put, listed clearly in plain sight -- the first condition is "necessity" and another is "a long train of abuses & usurpations" of which they then itemized about two dozen, including:

"He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people."

That is a far cry from 1860 Fire Eater "at pleasure" complaints about potential Northern restrictions on slavery's expansion.

DiogenesLamp: "One does not have to explain one's reasons for wanting to disassociate from people whom they saw as exploiting them."

Of course, as a free individual you are entitled to associate or disassociate yourself from whomever you wish -- within the defined limits of contracts you've agreed to.

But townships, counties, cities & states?
Not so much, according to our Founders' examples: they said it took necessity created by a long train of abuses & usurpations, etc.