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Confederate plaque in Texas Capitol to come down after vote
WFAA ^ | January 11, 2019 | Jason Whitely

Posted on 01/11/2019 5:16:40 AM PST by TexasGunLover

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To: FLT-bird; DiogenesLamp; DoodleDawg; x; rockrr; Bull Snipe; OIFVeteran; rustbucket
quoting DoodleDawg: "I’ve asked before, and I’ll ask again because watching you refuse to answer is so much fun, but what clause in the Confederate Constitution prohibited tariffs higher than 10%?*****"

FLT-bird: "It specified Revenue Tariff which by definition meant a maximum of 10%."

First, important to remember that before August 31, 1861 Confederate tariffs were basically the old Union pre-Morrill tariffs, said to average 15%+, with some minor changes.
They were expected to produce over $10 million per year in revenues but total Confederate tariff revenues (1861 to 1865) reached only $3.3 million.

Second, you can google up actual Confederate tariffs set on May 21, 1861, two weeks after they formally declared war.
Those tariffs took effect on August 31, 1861 and ranged from 25% on some items down to 5% or duty free on others.
Confederate tariffs were said to "average" 10%, but that was based on assumptions about what mix of rates would actually be paid.

  1. 25% tariffs ad velorem:
    • "Alabaster and spar ornaments; anchovies, sardines, and all other fish preserved in oil.
    • Brandy and other spirits distilled from grain... billiard and bagatelle tables, and all other tables or boards on which games are played.
    • Composition tops for tables, or other articles of furniture; confectionary, comfits, sweetmeats, or fruits preserved in sugar, molasses, brandy or other liquors; cordials, absynthe, arrack, curacoa, kirschenwesser, liquors, maraschino, ratafia, and all other spirituous beverages of a similar character.

  2. 20% tariffs ad velorem:
    • "Almonds, raisins, currants, dates, figs, and all other dried or preserved fruits, not otherwise provided for; argentine, alabata, or German silver, manufactured or unmanufactured; articles embroidered with gold, silver, or other metal, not otherwise provided for.
    • Balsams, cosmetics, essences, extracts, pastes, perfumes, and tinctures, used for the toilet or for medicinal purposes; bay rum, beads of amber, composition or wax, and all other beads; benzoates; bracelets, braids, chains, curls, or ringlets, composed of hair, or of which hair is a component part, not otherwise provided for; brooms and brushes of all kinds.
    • Camphor, refined; canes and sticks, for walking, finished or unfinished; capers, pickles and sauces of all kinds, not otherwise provided for; card cases, pocket books, shell boxes, souvenirs, and all similar articles, of whatever material composed, not otherwise provided for; compositions of glass, set or unset; coral, cut or manufactured.
    • Feathers and flowers, artificial or ornamental, and parts thereof, of whatever material composed; fans and fire screens of every description, of whatever material composed.
    • Grapes, plums, and prunes, and other such fruit, when put up in bottles, cases or cans, not otherwise provided for.
    • Hair, human, cleansed or prepared for use.
    • Manufactures of gold, platina, or silver, not otherwise provided for; manufactures of papier maché; molasses
    • Paintings on glass; pepper, pimento, cloves, nutmegs, cinnamon, and all other spices; perfumes and perfumery, of all sorts, not otherwise provided for; plated and gilt ware of all kinds, not otherwise provided for; playing cards; prepared vegetables, fruits, meats, poultry and game, sealed or enclosed in cans or otherwise.
    • Silver-plated metals, in sheets or other form; soap, castile, perfumed, windsor, and other toilet soaps; sugar of all kinds; syrup of sugar.
    • Epaulettes, galloons, laces, knots, stars, tassels, tresses, and wings of gold or silver, or imitations thereof."

  3. 15% tariffs ad velorem:
    • "Alum; arrow-root; articles of clothing or apparel, including hats, caps, gloves, shoes and boots of all kinds, worn by men, women or children, of whatever material composed, not otherwise provided for.
    • Baizes, blankets, bockings, flannels and floor-cloths, of whatever material composed, not otherwise provided for; baskets, and all other articles composed of grass, osier, palm leaf, straw, whalebone or willow, not otherwise provided for; beer, ale, and porter, in casks or bottles; bees-wax; berries and vegetables of all sorts used for food, not otherwise provided for; blue or roman vitriol, or sulphate of copper; Bologna sausages; braces, suspenders, webbing, or other fabrics, composed wholly or in part of India rubber, not otherwise provided for; breccia; burgundy pitch; buttons and button moulds of all kinds.
    • Cables and cordage, of whatever material made; cadmium; calamine; calomel and all other mercurial preparations; carbonate of soda; castor beans; castor oil; candles and tapers of spermaceti, stearine, parafine, tallow or wax, and all other candles; caps, hats, muffs and tippets, and all other manufactures of fur, or of which fur shall be a component part; caps, gloves, leggins, mits, socks, stockings, wove shirts and drawers, and all similar articles worn by men, women and children, and not otherwise provided for; carpets, carpeting, hearth-rugs, bed-sides, and other portions of carpeting, being either Aubusson, Brussels, ingrain, Saxony, Turkey, Venetian, Wilton, or any other similar fabric, not otherwise provided for; carriages and parts of carriages; castorum; chains, of all sorts; cider and other beverages not containing alcohol, and not otherwise provided for; chocolate; chromate of lead; chromate, bi-chromate, hydriodate, and prussiate of potash; clocks and parts of clocks; coach and harness furniture of all kinds; cobalt; combs of all kinds; copper bottoms; copper rods, bolts, nails, and spikes; copper in sheets or plates, called braziers' copper, and other sheets of copper, not otherwise provided for; copperas, or green vitriol, or sulphate of iron; corks; cotton cords, gimps, and galloons; cotton laces, cotton insertings, cotton trimming laces, cotton laces and braids; court plaster; coral unmanufactured; crayons of all kinds; cubebs; cutlery of all kinds.
    • Delaines; dolls and toys of all kinds; dried pulp; drugs, medicinal.
    • Earthen, china, and stone ware, and all other wares composed of earthy and mineral substances not otherwise provided for; encaustic tiles; ether; felspar; fig blue; fire-crackers, sky-rockets, Roman candles, and all similar articles used in pyrotechnics; fish, whether fresh, smoked, salted, dried or pickled, not otherwise provided for; fruits, preserved in their own juice, or pie fruits; fish glue, or isinglass; fish skins; flats, braids, plaits, sparterre and willow squares, used for making hats or bonnets; floss silks, feather beds, feathers for beds, and downs of all kinds; frames and sticks for umbrellas, parasols, and sunshades, finished or unfinished; Frankford black; fulminates, or fulminating powders; furniture, cabinet and household, not otherwise provided for; furs, dressed on the skin.
    • Ginger, dried, green, ripe, ground, preserved, or pickled; glass, colored, stained, or painted; glass, window; glass crystals for watches; glasses or pebbles for spectacles; glass tumblers, plain, moulded and pressed; bottles, flasks, and all other vessels of glass not cut, and all glass not otherwise provided for; glue; grass cloth; green turtle; gum benzoin, or benjamin; guns, except muskets and rifles, fire arms and all parts thereof not intended for military purposes; gunny cloth and India baggings and India mattings of all sorts, not otherwise provided for.
    • Hair, curled, moss, seaweed, and all other vegetable substances, used for beds or mattresses; hair pencils; hat bodies of cotton or wool; hats and bonnets, for men, women and children, composed of straw, satin straw, chip, grass, palm leaf, willow, or any other vegetable substance, or of hair, whalebone, or other materials not otherwise provided for; hatter's plush, of whatever material composed; honey.
    • Ink and ink powder; ipecacuanha; iridium; iris, or orris root; iron castings; iron liquor; iron in bars, bolts, rods, slabs, and railroad rails, spikes, fishing plates and chairs used in constructing railroads; ivory black.
    • Jalap; japanned ware of all kinds, not otherwise provided for; jet, and manufactures of jet, or imitations thereof; jewelry or imitations thereof; juniper berries.
    • Laces of cotton, of thread or other materials, not otherwise provided for; lampblack; lastings, cut in strips, or patterns of the size or shape for shoes, boots, bootees, slippers, gaiters or buttons, of whatever material composed; lead pencils; leaden pipes; leather, japanned; leeches; linens, of all kinds; liquorice, paste, juice or root; litharge.
    • Maccaroni, vermicelli, gelatine, jellies, and all other similar preparations, not otherwise provided for; machinery of every description, not otherwise provided for; malt; magnesia; manganese; manna; manufactures of the bark of the cork tree; manufactures of silk; manufactures of wool of all kinds, or worsted, not otherwise provided for; manufactures of hair of all kinds, not otherwise provided for; manufactures of cotton of all kinds, not otherwise provided for; manufactures of flax of all kinds, not otherwise provided for; manufactures of hemp of all kinds, not otherwise provided for; manufactures of bone, shell, horn, pearl, ivory, or vegetable ivory, not otherwise provided for; manufactures, articles, vessels and wares, not otherwise provided for, of brass, copper, iron, steel, lead, pewter, tin, or of which either of these metals shall be a component part; manufactures, articles, vessels, and wares, of glass, or of which glass shall be a component material, not otherwise provided for; manufactures and articles of leather, or of which leather shall be a component part, not otherwise provided for; manufactures and articles of marble, marble paving tiles, and all other marble more advanced in manufacture than in slabs or blocks in the rough, not otherwise provided for; manufactures of paper, or of which paper is a component material, not otherwise provided for; manufactures of wood, or of which wood is a component part, not otherwise provided for; matting, china or other floor matting, and mats made of flags, jute, or grass; medicinal preparations, drugs, roots, and leaves in a crude state, not otherwise provided for; morphine; metallic pens; mineral waters; musical instruments of all kinds, and strings for musical instruments, of whipgut, catgut, and all other strings of the same material; mustard, in bulk or in bottles; mustard seed.
    • Needles of all kinds, for sewing, darning and knitting; nitrate of lead.
    • Ochres and ochrey earths; oil-cloths of every description, of whatever material composed; oils of every description, animal, vegetable and mineral, not otherwise provided for; olives; opium; orange and lemon peel; osier or willow, prepared for basket-makers' use.
    • Paints, dry or ground in oil, not otherwise provided for; paper, antiquarian, demy, drawing, elephant, foolscap, imperial, letter, and for printing newspapers, hand-bills, and other printing, and all other paper, not otherwise provided for; paper boxes, and all other fancy boxes; paper envelopes; paper hangings; paper for walls, and paper for screens or fire-boards; parchment; parasols and sun-shades and umbrellas; patent mordant; paving and roofing tiles and bricks, and roofing slates, and fire-bricks; periodicals and other works, in course of printing and republication in the Confederate States; pitch; plaster of Paris, calcined; plumbago; potassium; putty.
    • Quicksilver; quills; quassia, manufactured or unmanufactured.
    • Red chalk pencils; rhubarb; roman cement.
    • Saddlery of all kinds, not otherwise provided for; saffron and saffron cake; sago; salts, epsom, glauber, rochelle, and all other salts and preparations of salts, not otherwise provided for; sarsaparilla; screws of all kinds; sealing wax; seines; seppia; sewing silk, in the gum and purified; shaddocks; skins of all kinds, tanned, dressed, or japanned; slate pencils; smaltz; soap of every description not otherwise provided for; spirits of turpentine; spunk; squills; starch ; stereotype plates; still bottoms; sulphate of barytes, crude or refined; sulphate of quinine, and quinine in all its various preparations.
    • Tapioca; tar; textile fabrics of every description, not otherwise provided for; twine and pack thread, of whatever material composed; thread lacings and insertings; types, old or new, and type metals.
    • Umbrellas; vandyke brown; vanilla beans; varnish of all kinds, vellum; venetian red; velvet in the piece, composed wholly of cotton, or of cotton and silk, but of which cotton is the component material of chief value; verdigris; vermilion; vinegar.
    • Wafers; water colors; whalebone; white and red lead; white vitriol, or sulphate of zinc; whiting, or Paris white; window glass, broad, crown or cylinder; woollen and worsted yarns and woollen listings; shot of lead, not otherwise provided for; wheelbarrows and hand-barrows; wagons and vehicles of every description, or parts thereof."

  4. 10% tariffs ad velorem:
    • "Acids of every description not otherwise provided for; alcornoque; aloes; ambergris; amber; ammonia, and sal ammonia; anatto, roucon or orleans; angora, thibet, and other goats' hair, or mohair, unmanufactured, not otherwise provided for; anniseed; antimony, crude or regulus of; argol, or crude tartar; arsenic; ashes, pot, pearl and soda; asphaltum; assafoetida.
    • Bananas, cocoa nuts, pine apples, plantains, oranges and all other West India fruits in their natural state; barilla; bark of all kinds, not otherwise provided for; bark, Peruvian; bark, guilla; bismuth; bitter apples; bleaching powder of chloride of lime: bones, burnt; boards, planks, staves, shingles, laths, scantling, and all other sawed lumber; also spars and hewn timber, of all sorts, not otherwise provided for; bone black, or animal carbon, and bone dust; bolting cloths; books, printed, magazines, pamphlets, periodicals, and illustrated newspapers, bound or unbound, not otherwise provided for; books, blank, bound or unbound; borate of lime; borax, crude or tincal; borax, refined; bouchu leaves; box-wood, unmanufactured; Brazil paste, Brazil wood, braziletto, and all dye-woods in sticks; bristles; bronze and Dutch metal in leaf; bronze liquor and bronze powder; building stones; butter; burr stones, wrought or unwrought.
    • Cabinets of coins, medals, gems, and all collections of antiquities; camphor; crude; cantharides; cassia and cassia buds; chalk; cheese; chickory root, chronometers, box or ship, and parts thereof; clay, burnt or unburnt bricks, paving and roofing tiles, gas retorts, and roofing slates; coal, coke, and culm of coal; cochineal; cocoa nuts, cocoa, and cocoa shells; coculus indicus; coir yarn; codilla, or tow of hemp or flax; cowhage down; cream of tartar; cudbear.
    • Diamonds, cameos, mosaics, gems, pearls, rubies and other precious stones, and imitations thereof, when set in gold or silver, or other metal; diamonds, glaziers', set or not set; dragon's blood.
    • Engravings, bound or unbound; extract of indigo, extracts and decoctions of log-wood and other dye-woods, not otherwise provided for; extract of madder; ergot.
    • Flax, unmanufactured; flaxseed and linseed; flints and flint ground; flocks, waste or shoddy; French chalk; furs, hatters', dressed or undressed, not on the skin; furs, undressed, when on the skin.
    • Glass, when old and fit only to be remanufactured; gamboge; gold and silver leaf; gold beaters' skin; grindstones; gums--Arabic, Barbary, copal, East Indies, Senegal, substitute, tragacanth, and all other gums and resins, in a crude state, not otherwise provided for.
    • Hair, of all kinds, uncleansed and unmanufactured; hemp, unmanufactured; hemp seed and rape seed; hops, horns, horn-tips, bone, bone-tips, and teeth, unmanufactured.
    • Ivory, unmanufactured; ivory nuts, or vegetable ivory.
    • Jute, sisal grass, coir, and other vegetable substances, unmanufactured, not otherwise provided for.
    • Kelp; kermes.
    • Lac spirits, lac sulphur, and lac dye; leather, tanned, bend, sole, and upper of all kinds, not otherwise provided for; lemons and limes, and lemon and lime juice, and juices of all other fruits without sugar; lime.
    • Madder, ground or prepared; madder root; marble, in the rough, slab or block, unmanufactured; metals, unmanufactured, not otherwise provided for; mineral kermes; mineral and bituminous substances in a crude state, not otherwise provided for; moss, iceland; music, printed with lines, bound or unbound.
    • Natron; nickel; nuts, not otherwise provided for; nut galls; nux vomica.
    • Oakum; oranges, lemons, and limes; orpiment.
    • Palm leaf, unmanufactured; pearl, mother of; pine apples; plantains; platina, unmanufactured; polishing stones; potatoes; Prussian blue; pumice and pumice stone.
    • Ratans and reeds, unmanufactured; red chalk;rotten stone.
    • Safflower; sal soda, and all carbonates and sulphates of soda, by whatever names designated, not otherwise provided for; seedlac; shellac; silk, raw, not more advanced in manufacture than singles, tram and thrown, or organzine; sponges; steel in bars, sheets and plates, not further advanced in manufacture than by rolling, and cast steel in bars; sumac; sulphur, flour of.
    • Tallow, marrow, and all other grease or soap stocks and soap stuffs, not otherwise provided for; tea, terne tin, in plates or sheets; teazle, terra japonica, catechu, tin in plates or sheets and tin foil; tortoise and other shells, unmanufactured; trees, shrubs, bulbs, plants and roots, not otherwise provided for; turmeric.
    • Watches and parts of watches; woad or pastel; woods; viz., cedar, box, ebony, lignumvitæ, granadilla, mahogany, rose-wood, satin-wood, and all other woods, unmanufactured.
    • Iron ore, and iron in blooms, loops and pigs.
    • Maps and charts.
    • Paintings and statuary not otherwise provided for.
    • Wool, unmanufactured, of every description, and hair of the Alpaca goat and other like animals.
    • Specimens of natural history, mineralogy or botany, not otherwise provided for.
    • Yams.
    • Leaf and unmanufactured tobacco."

    5% tariffs ad velorem:
    • "Articles used in dyeing and tanning, not otherwise provided for.
    • Brass, in bars or pigs, old and fit only to be remanufactured; bells, old; bell metal.
    • Copper in pigs or bars; copper ore; copper, when old and fit only to be remanufactured; cutch.
    • Diamonds, cameos, mosaics, pearls, gems, rubies, and other precious stones, and imitations thereof, when not set.
    • Emery in lump or pulverized.
    • Felt, adhesive for sheathing vessels; fuller's earth.
    • Gums of all sorts, not otherwise provided for; gutta percha, unmanufactured.
    • Indigo; india rubber, in bottles, slabs or sheets, unmanufactured; india rubber, milk of.
    • Junk, old.
    • Plaster of Paris or sulphate of lime, ground or unground; raw hides and skins of all kinds, undressed.
    • Sheathing copper, but no copper to be considered as such except in sheets forty-eight inches long and fourteen inches wide, and weighing from eleven to thirty-four ounces; sheathing or yellow metal not wholly or part of iron; sheathing or yellow metal nails, expressly for sheathing vessels; sheathing paper, stave bolts and shingle bolts.
    • Tin ore and tin in pigs or bars; type, old and fit only to be remanufactured.
    • Wold.
    • Zinc, spelter, or tentenegue, unmanufactured."

  5. Specific Duties:
    • "Ice--one dollar and fifty cents per ton.
    • Salt, ground, blown, or rock--two cents per bushel, of fifty-six pounds per bushel."

  6. Exempt from Duty:
    • "Books, maps, charts, mathematical and nautical instruments, philosophical apparatus, and all other articles whatever, imported for the use of the Confederate States; books, pamphlets, periodicals and tracts, published by religious associations.
    • All philosophical apparatus, instruments, books, maps and charts, statues, statuary, busts and casts, of marble, bronze, alabaster or plaster of Paris, paintings and drawings, etchings, specimens of sculpture, cabinet of coins, medals, gems, and all collections of antiquities. Provided the same be specially imported in good faith for the use of any society, incorporated or established for philosophical and literary purposes, or for the encouragement of the fine arts, or for the use or by the order of any church, college, academy, school, or seminary of learning in the Confederate States.
      Bullion, gold and silver.
    • Coins, gold, silver and copper; coffee; cotton; copper, when imported for the mint of the Confederate States.
    • Garden seeds, and all other seeds for agricultural and horticultural purposes; goods, wares and merchandize, the growth, produce or manufacture of the Confederate States, exported to a foreign country, and brought back to the Confederate States in the same condition as when exported, upon which no drawback has been allowed. Provided that all regulations to ascertain the identity thereof, prescribed by existing laws, or which may be prescribed by the Secretary of the Treasury, shall be complied with; guano, manures and fertilizers of all sorts.
    • Household effects, old and in use, of persons or families from foreign countries, if used abroad by them, and not intended for any other purpose or purposes, or for sale.
    • Models or inventions, or other improvements in the arts. Provided that no article or articles shall be deemed a model which can be fitted for use.
    • Paving stones; personal and household effects, not merchandize, of citizens of the Confederate States dying abroad.
    • Specimens of natural history, mineralogy or botany. Provided the same be imported in good faith for the use of any society incorporated or established for philosophical, agricultural or horticultural purposes, or for the use or by the order of any college, academy, school, or seminary of learning in the Confederate States.
    • Wearing apparel, and other personal effects not merchandize; professional books, implements, instruments and tools of trades, occupation or employment, of persons arriving in the Confederate States. Provided that this exemption shall not be construed to include machinery, or other articles imported for use in any manufacturing establishment, or for sale.
    • Bacon, pork, hams, lard, beef, wheat, flour and bran of wheat, flour and bran of all other grains, Indian corn and meal, barley, rye, oats and oatmeal, and living animals of all kinds, not otherwise provided for; also, all agricultural productions, including those of the orchard and garden, in their natural state, not otherwise provided for.
    • Gunpowder, and all the materials of which it is made.
    • Lead, in pigs or bars, in shot or balls, for cannon, muskets, rifles, or pistols.
    • Rags, of whatever material composed.
    • Arms, of every description, for military purposes and parts thereof, munitions of war, military accoutrements and percussion caps.
    • Ships, steamers, barges, dredging vessels, machinery, screw pile jetties, and articles to be used in the construction of harbors, and for dredging and improving the same."
This is a pretty amazing list, and some items we can only wonder at -- i.e., what is "extract of madder"?
Could that be used in the production of the world-famous rebel yell? ;-)

So these are those big-bad Confederate tariffs which represented such a huge threat to the Union economy that Northerners were eager to fight a war to stop them, as our Lost Causers tell us?
I don't think so.

For an interesting argument against the Lost Cause tariff myth, see here.

And in that context this graph shows average rates for the US, UK and France.
Notice that in 1860 they were all historically low:


741 posted on 01/26/2019 4:06:37 AM PST by BroJoeK ((a little historical perspective...))
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To: BroJoeK

Your repetitive responding to respond in order to waste as much time as possible while failing to read and/or just claiming any source that is inconvenient for your arguments is automatically untrue, has likewise come to an end. Buh Bye.

10th attempt.


742 posted on 01/26/2019 4:32:47 AM PST by FLT-bird
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To: FLT-bird; DiogenesLamp; DoodleDawg; x; rockrr; Bull Snipe; OIFVeteran; rustbucket
On the related question of what percent of Federal tariff revenues were "paid for" by "the South", we've seen numbers claimed starting at 75% and even going north of 85%.
This in the face of actual revenues collected in Southern ports around just 8% of the total.
So, how do we get from 8% actual revenues to 75%+ claimed as "paid for" by "the South"?

Well, some posters like DiogenesLamp tell us it's not about import tariffs, but rather the export earnings which "paid for" those imports.
These, if we jigger & massage the numbers enough, can be made to appear as if "75%+" of US exports were "Southern products" which thus somehow "paid for" 75%+ of Federal import tariffs.

Others, like FLT-bird, are more direct in saying 75%+ of US imports were Southern owned when landed in New York, thus Southerners paid the tariffs in New York and then shipped their imports South via rail or packet ships.
This, they say, was the great economic crime committed by, in DiogenesLamp's term, "Northeastern power brokers" against the hard-working innocent Southern planters.

Well...
We can clear up one point pretty easily: what percent of US imports ended up in the South -- was it 85%, 75%, 50% or 8%?
Answer: closer to the last:

Maybe 10% according to this contemporary witness.

But what these numbers don't show us is the value of Southern "imports" from the North, circa $200 million per year.
We can compare those in 1860 as follows:

  1. Southern cotton exports ~ $200 million
  2. All other US exports, including specie ~ $200 million
  3. Northern export to the South ~ $200 million
In other words, "the North" "exported" an equal value to the South as it did to the rest of the world combined.
And "the South" effectively spent all its foreign exchange earnings in the North.

Those are indeed significant numbers -- no, not 75% or 85%, but still important to the overall.

743 posted on 01/26/2019 5:27:17 AM PST by BroJoeK ((a little historical perspective...))
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To: BroJoeK

Your repetitive responding to respond in order to waste as much time as possible while failing to read and/or just claiming any source that is inconvenient for your arguments is automatically untrue, has likewise come to an end. Buh Bye.

11th attempt.


744 posted on 01/26/2019 7:49:57 AM PST by FLT-bird
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To: BroJoeK
Can't you just picture bird-brain holding his ears and chanting "I can't HEAR you!"


745 posted on 01/26/2019 8:51:19 AM PST by rockrr ( Everything is different now...)
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To: BroJoeK
And "the South" effectively spent all its foreign exchange earnings in the North.

For any northern goods whose prices had been raised because the tariff protected them from cheaper and in some cases probably better quality foreign goods, the South was effectively paying the tariff to the makers of those Northern goods.

746 posted on 01/26/2019 9:18:00 AM PST by rustbucket
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To: rustbucket; DiogenesLamp; FLT-bird; rockrr; x
rustbucket: "For any northern goods whose prices had been raised because the tariff protected them from cheaper and in some cases probably better quality foreign goods, the South was effectively paying the tariff to the makers of those Northern goods."

Sure, but that's not what we've seen from posters like DiogenesLamp or FLT-bird.
Instead they want to make the Southern "paid for" more direct, as if somehow Southern planters themselves "paid" the Union tariffs.
They didn't.

However, interestingly enough, there are numbers available which can show which manufactured commodities "exported" by "the North" to "the South" included at least some foreign raw materials.
Those would be European woolens and pig iron, plus Chinese silk and tea. It's hard to imagine a value added to imported tea, but woolens & silk could be made into clothing, and pig iron into any number of metal products.
If we suppose the average value added in the North was 50% before resale in the South, then the total import cost of woolens, pig iron, silk and tea shipped South would be about 10% of total imports.

Thus we see that about 8% of US imports landed directly in Confederate state ports, mainly New Orleans, plus another ~10% landed in "Northern" ports for manufacture and resale to the South.
In sum, of all US imports about 20% ended up in "the South", which roughly corresponds to the South's contribution to total US GDP -- See calculations here.

Bottom line: there are no numbers anywhere which honestly justify claims "the South" "paid for" 75% or 85%, or anything remotely close to it, of Federal import tariffs.
20% is the more reasonable number.

747 posted on 01/26/2019 12:35:59 PM PST by BroJoeK ((a little historical perspective...))
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To: BroJoeK

Your repetitive responding to respond in order to waste as much time as possible while failing to read and/or just claiming any source that is inconvenient for your arguments is automatically untrue, has likewise come to an end. Buh Bye.

12th attempt.


748 posted on 01/26/2019 12:54:57 PM PST by FLT-bird
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To: rustbucket
For any northern goods whose prices had been raised because the tariff protected them from cheaper and in some cases probably better quality foreign goods, the South was effectively paying the tariff to the makers of those Northern goods.

Wouldn't Northern consumers of those goods be paying the tariff as well?

749 posted on 01/26/2019 1:08:28 PM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: DiogenesLamp; FLT-bird; DoodleDawg; rockrr; x; Bull Snipe; OIFVeteran
quoting BJK: "Their arguments are especially weak in claiming Lincoln “attacked” Charleston to collect tariff revenues — weak because Charleston tariffs amounted to only one tenth of one percent of total tariffs."

DiogenesLamp: "And here is another bit of idiocy. NO ONE SAID THAT!
He attacked Charleston to PREVENT them from taking away New York's business by charging lower tariffs than did the Union."

BJK: "Oh, but they did..."

All through this thread you see quotes & arguments made that "the South" was "paying for" 75% or more of US tariffs and that's the reason Lincoln sent his "war fleet" to Charleston.
Apparently, some people are not so clear in their minds about exactly what role Charleston played.
For example, in post #609, FLT-bird explains about Jefferson Davis:

Of course, FLT-bird can be forgiven for simply repeating what his own quotes from the time reported: And FLT-bird quotes Northerners along these same lines: Especially interesting (see below) is the quote from Confederate Col. Baldwin, who in 1866 put words in Lincoln's mouth in April 1861 to the effect that Lincoln believed all of Federal revenues came from Charleston harbor!

So clearly our Lost Cause meme that it was "all about the tariffs" in Charleston did not originate with DiogenesLamp or FLT-bird.
It goes back to Confederate eyewitness testimony about what Lincoln himself thought in April 1861.
Confederate Col. John Baldwin claimed in 1866 that Lincoln said Fort Sumter was "all about revenues":

That's Baldwin's version in 1866.
In 1861 Lincoln himself told a different version: Lincoln's peace offer was: a fort for a state, Sumter for Virginia.

Bottom line: Baldwin himself claimed that Lincoln believed $50 or 60 million in Federal revenues was at stake in Charleston, SC.

So is it any wonder if today's Lost Causers repeat such nonsense?

750 posted on 01/27/2019 5:00:45 AM PST by BroJoeK ((a little historical perspective...))
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To: BroJoeK

Your repetitive responding to respond in order to waste as much time as possible while failing to read and/or just claiming any source that is inconvenient for your arguments is automatically untrue, has likewise come to an end. Buh Bye.

13th attempt.


751 posted on 01/27/2019 7:42:11 AM PST by FLT-bird
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To: BroJoeK

Had the Southern secession been successful and even had the Confederacy set their tariff at 10% I fail to see how anyone with any sense at all could assume that all those imports that went to New York would suddenly switch to being sent to Confederate ports.


752 posted on 01/27/2019 8:24:29 AM PST by DoodleDawg
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To: DoodleDawg; BroJoeK
I fail to see how anyone with any sense at all could assume that all those imports that went to New York would suddenly switch to being sent to Confederate ports.

I think I see the problem.

753 posted on 01/27/2019 9:05:56 AM PST by rockrr ( Everything is different now...)
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To: FLT-bird; rockrr; DoodleDawg; x; DiogenesLamp; Bull Snipe; OIFVeteran; rustbucket
FLT-bird: "13th attempt."

Getting just a little, ahem, repetitive, aren't you?
I'd call that p*ss*ng on the thread, clearly a form of abuse, especially when we consider the following:

  1. Of 753 posts so far, by far the most came from FLT-bird, by my count 135.
    I might be next, with 94 posts.
    DoodleDawg has 76.

  2. Some of FLT-bird's posts are mercifully brief, but others are lengthy, filled with quotes & detailed rebuttals, so I'd not guess his word count less than mine.

  3. As for how, ahem, repetitive is FLT-bird, I count, for example, four times he's posted this particular quote:

      "If the Southern Confederation is allowed to carry out a policy by which only a nominal duty is laid upon the imports, no doubt the business of the chief Northern cities will be seriously injured thereby...."
Of course, like any Democrat, FLT-bird's nature is to shout out his opinions as long & loudly as possible, then if that doesn't work, to shut down opposition by becoming... well... as annoying as can be.

But the question remains whether FLT-bird or others have raised issues which were not yet adequately addressed?
My answer is: possibly, and my intentions are to answer them, as best as they can be answered with whatever time I might have to spend on it.

Now Free Republic's unwritten rules (unwritten so far as I know) say, if I'm going to discuss FLT-bird's posts, then I have to include FLT-bird in my addressee list, so I will, even at risk of FLT-bird increasing his own post count by **repetitively** complaining about mine. ;-)

754 posted on 01/28/2019 3:50:02 AM PST by BroJoeK ((a little historical perspective...))
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To: BroJoeK

Your repetitive responding to respond in order to waste as much time as possible while failing to read and/or just claiming any source that is inconvenient for your arguments is automatically untrue, has likewise come to an end. Buh Bye.

14th attempt.

Sooner or later you’re going to realize that you are simply not going to steal hours of my day every day by posting your same old obsessive BS.


755 posted on 01/28/2019 7:20:44 AM PST by FLT-bird
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To: FLT-bird; DoodleDawg; BroJoeK

I just have one question for you, when you read South Carolina’s declaration of secession what do you think is the main reason they gave for seceding.


756 posted on 01/28/2019 8:52:36 AM PST by OIFVeteran
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To: FLT-bird; rockrr; DoodleDawg; x; DiogenesLamp; Bull Snipe; OIFVeteran; rustbucket
FLT-bird: "Sooner or later you’re going to realize that you are simply not going to steal hours of my day every day by posting your same old obsessive BS."

"Obsessive" would describe the one who'se made now 136 posts on this thread, more than anyone else and some very lengthy, but now refuses to stick around & deal with the responses.
"Obsessive" would describe the one who thinks somehow it's all about FLT-bird, when it isn't.

It's not about FLT-bird, or BroJoeK, or anyone else, rather it's about the arguments, facts, quotes & cases to be made.
The question is, which are based on facts & reason and which are based on myths & emotion?
You've made your arguments, you can stick around to defend them or not, your choice, nobody here much cares which you do.

But there's no excuse for you to p*ss all over this thread just because you're tired of responding.
So give it a rest, go do something else...

Enjoy your day, sir.

757 posted on 01/28/2019 9:25:22 AM PST by BroJoeK ((a little historical perspective...))
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To: OIFVeteran
I just have one question for you, when you read South Carolina’s declaration of secession what do you think is the main reason they gave for seceding.

Oh no doubt that was the legal reason they gave. Lemme ask you...what do you think the real reason was when you look and see that the North offered slavery forever by express constitutional amendment and the original 7 seceding states turned that offer down?

758 posted on 01/28/2019 11:09:29 AM PST by FLT-bird
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To: BroJoeK

Your repetitive responding to respond in order to waste as much time as possible while failing to read and/or just claiming any source that is inconvenient for your arguments is automatically untrue, has likewise come to an end. Buh Bye.

15th attempt.

You are simply not going to steal hours of my day every day. Deal with it.


759 posted on 01/28/2019 11:10:14 AM PST by FLT-bird
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To: BroJoeK; FLT-bird
DoodleDawg has 76

I posted 10% of the responses on this thread? I really need to get a life.

Just out of curiosity, did you happen to note how many of those posts were is response to a factual inaccuracy that FLT-bird posted? I'm just curious.

760 posted on 01/28/2019 11:18:50 AM PST by DoodleDawg
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