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To: PGR88

The U.S. Army’s official name for it is the war of rebellion, which I think is most accurate. The US had an election for president per the constitution, with no accusations of fraud or other tampering. Southern states, starting with South Carolina, decided they didn’t like the outcome of the election and decided to take their toys and go home. Not only that, they sent representatives to other states that had not yet seceded to try and convince them to secede. If that ain’t treason I don’t know what is.

As far as whether secession was allowed under the constitution, I will take James Madison’s own words on that;

“I partake of the wonder that the men you name should view secession in the light mentioned. The essential difference between a free Government and Governments not free, is that the former is founded in compact, the parties to which are mutually and equally bound by it. Neither of them therefore can have a greater fight to break off from the bargain, than the other or others have to hold them to it. And certainly there is nothing in the Virginia resolutions of –98, adverse to this principle, which is that of common sense and common justice. The fallacy which draws a different conclusion from them lies in confounding a single party, with the parties to the Constitutional compact of the United States. The latter having made the compact may do what they will with it. The former as one only of the parties, owes fidelity to it, till released by consent, or absolved by an intolerable abuse of the power created. In the Virginia Resolutions and Report the plural number, States, is in every instance used where reference is made to the authority which presided over the Government. As I am now known to have drawn those documents, I may say as I do with a distinct recollection, that the distinction was intentional. It was in fact required by the course of reasoning employed on the occasion. The Kentucky resolutions being less guarded have been more easily perverted. The pretext for the liberty taken with those of Virginia is the word respective, prefixed to the “rights” &c to be secured within the States. Could the abuse of the expression have been foreseen or suspected, the form of it would doubtless have been varied. But what can be more consistent with common sense, than that all having the same rights &c, should unite in contending for the security of them to each.

It is remarkable how closely the nullifiers who make the name of Mr. Jefferson the pedestal for their colossal heresy, shut their eyes and lips, whenever his authority is ever so clearly and emphatically against them. You have noticed what he says in his letters to Monroe & Carrington Pages 43 & 203, vol. 2,1 with respect to the powers of the old Congress to coerce delinquent States, and his reasons for preferring for the purpose a naval to a military force; and moreover that it was not necessary to find a right to coerce in the Federal Articles, that being inherent in the nature of a compact. It is high time that the claim to secede at will should be put down by the public opinion; and I shall be glad to see the task commenced by one who understands the subject.”
Letter from James Madison to Mr. Trist
Dec 23, 1832 during the nullification crisis.


206 posted on 04/15/2017 8:29:34 PM PDT by OIFVeteran
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To: OIFVeteran

“The U.S. Army’s official name for it is the war of rebellion, which I think is most accurate.”

I think it’s more accurate to call it “The War Between The States” because it was a “disagreement” among the participants (the States) of the compact to form a Union of states. And because everyone seems to give too much credit or blame to Lincoln when it should be given to the Northern States.

What could Lincoln do on his own? Could he send in the FBI or the ATF or have the IRS go after the secessionists? Some will say he sent in the army but someone up thread said the Regular Army at the time was 16,000 strong and, while I seem to recall it was closer to 30,000, in either case it wasn’t enough.

The Union force at First Manassas numbered more than the Regular Army because of Volunteers (not part of the Regular Army) from the Northern States. Note that when Grant was promoted to Major General he was promoted to Major General of Volunteers and was made Major General of the Regular Army later. I believe that without the support of the Northern States the war couldn’t have been fought and Lincoln couldn’t have done much about it.

“The US had an election for president per the constitution, with no accusations of fraud or other tampering. Southern states, starting with South Carolina, decided they didn’t like the outcome of the election and decided to take their toys and go home.”

I would say that the Democratic Party lost the election of 1860 and had a hissy fit. As I recall, all the Southern State governments were filled with Democrats. Further, Democrats in the North tried to undermine the war effort.

I also think that at it’s core (not the Average Joe party member), the Democratic Party is still working toward the dissolution of the United States.

I state the above as opinion for which I expect to receive abuse to which I may or may not respond. Time for bed.


213 posted on 04/15/2017 11:35:57 PM PDT by KrisKrinkle (Blessed be those who know the depth and breadth of their ignorance. Cursed be those who don't.)
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To: OIFVeteran; PGR88; jeffersondem; rockrr
OIFVeteran quoting Madison: "The fallacy which draws a different conclusion from them lies in confounding a single party, with the parties to the Constitutional compact of the United States.
The latter having made the compact may do what they will with it.
The former as one only of the parties, owes fidelity to it, till released by consent, or absolved by an intolerable abuse of the power created...
It is high time that the claim to secede at will should be put down by the public opinion..."

Thank you, sir, for quoting Madison at length here.
He answers the question of Founders' Original Intent.

218 posted on 04/16/2017 9:08:14 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective...)
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