House drops Confederate Flag ban for veterans cemeteries

politico.com ^ | 6/23/16 | Matthew Nussbaum

[ColdOne]

A measure to bar confederate flags from cemeteries run by the Department of Veterans Affairs was removed from legislation passed by the House early Thursday.

The flag ban was added to the VA funding bill in May by a vote of 265-159, with most Republicans voting against the ban. But Speaker Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) and Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) both supported the measure. Ryan was commended for allowing a vote on the controversial measure, but has since limited what amendments can be offered on the floor.

[jmacusa]

Between the Imperial Japanese Navy and it's submarines off the West Coast and German U-Boats ranging south from the St. Lawrence Seaway , along the entire US eastern seaboard to the Gulf of Mexico these two countries damned near did it to us.

[DiogenesLamp]

Dude, you really are too stupid to be an idiot. You don’t think blockading ports is militarily effective? Check out just how terrified Winston Churchill was in WW2 at the idea of German U-boats successfully blockading all of Great Britain. The Germans came very close to doing just that.

So basically the Union blockaded Southern ports to keep Europe from shipping food to them?

Well why didn't you say so? Obviously the South couldn't fight a war for years without food shipments!

Yes, those food shipment life lines from Europe were absolutely vital! Vital I say!

[PeaRidge]

Too bad you are having trouble locating newspapers.

You said you could not find two...here they are:

Chicago Daily Times (Chicago, Illinois) Newspaper Archives(1855 - 1856).

Research here

Research the Manchester Union Democrat here

But don't exhaust yourself. Your inability to find anything does not prove it does not exist....Not to worry there.

[DiogenesLamp]

Between the Imperial Japanese Navy and it's submarines off the West Coast and German U-Boats ranging south from the St. Lawrence Seaway , along the entire US eastern seaboard to the Gulf of Mexico these two countries damned near did it to us.

We had synthesized rubber, so we no longer needed the rubber plantations on the pacific side. What exactly were the Japanese keeping us from importing?

Likewise on the other side, what were the Germans stopping us from Importing? Were we getting food, or steel, or coal, or anything useful to a war effort from Europe? Or China?

It seems to me it was the British that needed the Supplies, and that we were the ones supplying them.

On the other side, the Japanese were attacking us because we were interfering with *THEIR* necessary trade. Once again necessary because Japan is also an Island(s).

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "Even at your starting point, 1/4 of the American citizens in the South were producing 50% of all revenue, while the 3/4ths of the citizens in the North were only producing 50% of the revenue."

No, sorry, but it wasn't 1/4 or anywhere near that.
It was 3 million slaves, not considered American citizens who produced that 50% of US exports.

And those three million slaves were owned primarily by around 100,000 slave-holders.
And from the profits of their cotton exports those 100,000 slave-holders imported luxury goods which paid roughly one half of Federal revenues.

So those five million Southern whites contributed virtually nothing!

DiogenesLamp: "The per Capita value from European Trade for the Southern part of the Union in 1860 (using *YOUR* numbers) was 40, while the Per Capita value from European Trade for the Northern part of the Union was 10."

No, the per capita value of Southern white contributions to US exports was almost exactly zero!
Slaves produced those exports, about 100,000 Southern slave-holders took their money and purchased luxury imports, tariffs on which produced about 50% of Federal Revenues

DiogenesLamp: "In reality, due to the Northern favored tariff rules, they were paying much more, and even then, much of the money was being used to subsidize Northern ran businesses. "

Your claim of direct Federal subsidies going to Northern business is not substantiated by any data I've ever seen.
What is known are protective tariffs on imports which allowed US manufacturers -- North and South -- to pay their workers higher wages, or in the case of slave-holders to reap higher profits on their products than would otherwise be the case.

Two key facts to keep in mind on this are:

1. These tariffs protected all manufacturers, North and South, and
2. They were all voted on by Democrat controlled Congresses and Democrat were controlled by Southerners.

DiogenesLamp: "But even with your numbers, the Southerners slaves were producing 4 to 1 more all the value per capita than the North from the South."

There, fixed it for you. Sure, no problem, you're welcome.

DiogenesLamp: "The Union went to The Confederacy started war to get back that money they lost give the Union a bloody nose and teach it a lesson when the South declared Independence.
The numbers tell the true story of what happened."

You're welcome.

DiogenesLamp: "All the rest is contrived kabuki dance on the part of Lincoln and the Northern power barons who influenced him to do what the numbers said he must do DiogenesLamp to obscure and rewrite the real history."

No problem.

[PeaRidge]

You misread the report. The section of the report you quote does not identify the owner(s) of the specie shipped. You can see in the tables that specie was reshipped via American ports, meaning that the origin of the specie could be Mexico, Chile, or the Philippines.

Point is that you continue to make claims that are unsupported by the data.

[DiogenesLamp]

No, sorry, but it wasn't 1/4 or anywhere near that. It was 3 million slaves, not considered American citizens who produced that 50% of US exports.

Ah ha! So you admit half (it was really more than that) the money going through New York was Slave money! Good! We are making progress.

So what I have been saying all along is right. What is worse than slave owners are people who murder hundreds of thousands just to get back the money created by slaves.

I think this makes them the most evil human beings in American History.

[DiogenesLamp]

Point is that you continue to make claims that are unsupported by the data.

And which always err in the same direction.

[PeaRidge]

If I recall correctly, the Confederate government fashioned its first tariff structure around Feb. 9.

It was announced about a month later. Immediately after, all sorts of newspaper outcries began...mostly calling for force to be used against the seceded states.

As you know, Lincoln had just taken office. Governors and Congressmen began a clamor to have him do something to coerce the South.

[PeaRidge]

Bottom line, BroCanard, you do not know the owner(s) of specie, reason for export, or numerical portion of the trade if any at all.

You are just tossing that amount in to try to prove another point that is not anywhere near being true.

[PeaRidge]

Look it up yourself.

[BroJoeK]

rustbucket quoting Harrisburg newspaper: "Pennsylvania may thus comprehend the fearful retribution she has brought upon herself by neglecting the cause of the Union when assailed by its enemies, to clutch at the unreal, unsubstantial good of a protective tariff.
She has purchased a worthless tariff at the expense of the Union."

A pretty effective piece of anti-Republican propaganda, I'd say, which could well have been written by Pennsylvania's Doughface-in-Chief, former Democrat President Buchanan.
Of course it's all lies, just as is most of what spews out of Democrats.

The real truth is:

1. "Republican policies" did not "destroy the Union" because there were no Republican policies in effect when Deep South Fire Eaters began declaring their secessions.
   So it wasn't "policies" but Deep South fears of what "Black Republicans" might do sometime in the future which drove Fire Eaters to declare secession at pleasure.

2. No, the "the tariff is as worthless... as the paper upon which it is written" -- NOT!.
   In fact the new Morrill Tariff soon doubled Federal receipts, and provided protections for US industry to pay its workers more than any others in the world.

3. No, "Entering Southern ports at one-half the rate they would be compelled to pay at the North, it will be impossible to prevent their spread over the country.
   The government would find it a huge undertaking to guard the line separating the Confederate States from the Union..." -- NOT!
   In fact that turned out to be the smallest of Union problems in the coming years.

4. No "It would be equally difficult to prevent the entry of vessels into Southern ports by a rigorous blockade;" -- NOT!
   Of course it did take some months to build an effective blockade, but that would not have been necessary had the Confederacy not started war.

5. "This conflict between the two tariffs must result in diminishing the revenue of our government, and in subjecting manufacturers to a flood of foreign competition, in comparison with which the old tariff, in a compact Union, was as nothing."

   All written like true Democrats, ever eager to blame Republicans for their own malfeasance.
   In fact, by their own words the Morrill Tariff proposal had nothing to do with Fire Eaters' declarations of secession.
   What caused them to secede at pleasure was simple fear of what anti-slavery "Black Republicans" might somehow do in the future to threaten their "peculiar institution."

[jmacusa]

The Japanese were sinking US oil tankers and shelling American oil refineries with their five inch deck guns. The Germans were sinking shipping up and down the east coast and in the Gulf of Mexico. The hunting was so good here the Germans submariners called the months before and after Pearl Harbor as ‘’The Happy Time’’. The fact that these two belligerents had submarines operating inside US territorial waters was a damnable failure of the US Navy and Coast Guards ability to protect United States shores.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "Then how did they replace that 238 million dollars they lost? Hmmm?"

Well, they never did replace the $192 million in cotton exports, but as it turned out, they didn't need to.
They simply multiplied other exports which paid for more imports which soon doubled Federal tariff revenues.

DiogenesLamp: " 'Borrowing' is not real money.
It is in fact how we got into our current mess.
Another disastrous consequence of the Civil War."

More stuff & nonsense.
In fact, Civil War debt never reached the levels of Revolutionary War debts, and was soon paid down.
So Federal debt did not rise out of control until Democrats under President Roosevelt's New Deal drove it through the roof.

Today Democrats have again driven debt through the roof and this time for no quantifiable benefit.

[DoodleDawg]

So when you guys hit 1 million posts are we going to have a party?

[BroJoeK]

PeaRidge: "Yes, both import and export data is found on pages 48 and 49.
Reconfirmed on page 222.
You didn't bother to check, did you....."

Of course I did, and just now rechecked.

The data you claim is here, detailing products of Southern and Northern origin on pages 48, 49 and 222 is, in fact, not there.

Go ahead, check it again yourself.

I'll be most curious to see your answer.

[BroJoeK]

PeaRidge: "In the Historical Statistics of the United States, section Department of Commerce, there are records of shipment of goods by port.
Each port lists shipments out by type."

So you are now telling me the link you provided above does not give us raw numbers to confirm the summaries you posted?

Why am I not surprised?

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "So you are sorta claiming that the South was needing food imports from Europe or something?"

Once Civil War started the Confederacy soon switched from producing cotton for export to producing food for its armies.

But the Confederacy certainly could have used major imports for many purposes, just to mention a few: rail, railroad engines & telegraph wire.
Those would have made a huge difference to Confederate armies and in the end rendered them far less mobile than their Union opponents.

[BroJoeK]

PeaRidge: "Chicago Daily Times (Chicago, Illinois) Newspaper Archives(1855 - 1856)."

Not exactly the time frame we're talking about.

PeaRidge: "Research the Manchester Union Democrat here"

In fact, you provide the same link twice, to the Chicago paper.
No record yet of a Manchester Union Democrat.

PeaRidge: "Your inability to find anything does not prove it does not exist...."

No, but your inability to produce evidence for your own alleged quotes does throw their veracity into doubt.

[BroJoeK]

PeaRidge: "You misread the report.
The section of the report you quote does not identify the owner(s) of the specie shipped.
You can see in the tables that specie was reshipped via American ports, meaning that the origin of the specie could be Mexico, Chile, or the Philippines."

Sorry, but you've misread the report.

The section of the report I quote says nothing about reshipments, period.
It certainly does show imports of specie at $8.5 million and those might be considered as if reshipments from Mexico, etc., to be netted against the $58 million in gross specie exports.

Regardless, your own Treasurer's Report shows US gold reserves in 1861 approaching $1 billion.
So $50 million is specie exports was just a drop in the bucket.

PeaRidge: "Point is that you I continue to make claims that are unsupported by the data."

Exactly.