Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Offered for discussion. Please try to avoid the usual contemptuous rhetoric. Please keep it civil.
1 posted on 01/16/2016 5:15:49 PM PST by John Valentine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies ]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-27 next last
To: John Valentine

Your analysis is spot on and correct IMHO. Thank you for your effort.


2 posted on 01/16/2016 5:20:00 PM PST by House Atreides (Cruzin' [BUT NO LONGER Trumping'] or losin'!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

Yup.

Only the Presidency is closed to naturalized citizens.

The Founders presumed the equality of American citizens for all other elective offices.

If Cruz is a natural born citizen; he’s eligible to run for President.

If he is a naturalized citizen, he cannot become President.


3 posted on 01/16/2016 5:23:40 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

Good post.

This is the original, and I believe, the only interpretation of what Natural born citizen means. It is an eligibility requirement for the U.S. Presidency.


4 posted on 01/16/2016 5:24:21 PM PST by SatinDoll (A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN IS BORN IN THE USA OF TWO USA CITIZENS)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

Very nice work. Thanks.


5 posted on 01/16/2016 5:26:13 PM PST by Qwackertoo (Worst 8 years ever, First Affirmative Action President, I hope those who did this to us SUFFER MOST!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

There are only two kinds of citizens: natural born citizens and naturalized citizens, the latter being those made citizens by statute, not nature.

Mr. Cruz falls into the latter category, having been granted citizenship solely based on the provisions of the 1952 Immigration and NATURALIZATION Act.

For all other purposes than the qualifications for president, there is no real difference. A naturalized citizen has been made as if he were natural born, with all attendant privileges and immunities.


7 posted on 01/16/2016 5:27:05 PM PST by EternalVigilance ('A man without force is without the essential dignity of humanity.' - Frederick Douglass)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

The laws and customs of the United States conform with this interpretation. The citizens of the United States are divided into two classes, Natural born and naturalized. All of those who received their citizenship by court or administrative act are naturalized citizens and must present documentation of that event.


9 posted on 01/16/2016 5:29:23 PM PST by centurion316
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

Yes, either you are born with citizenship based on the conditions of your birth or naturalized. If you are a citizen and not naturalized you have to be “natural born”. There is no third option.

Cruz was born with citizenship based on the law at the time of his birth. That makes him a natural born citizen.

My 2 cents.


10 posted on 01/16/2016 5:29:38 PM PST by DB
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine
Under your analysis, the intent of the Framers in using the phrase "natural born citizen" in Article II does not matter. Do you believe that?

Do you know of any case decided by the SCOTUS on any language of the Constitution that takes the position that the intent of the Framers in using the phrase and placing it in the Constitution does not matter?

13 posted on 01/16/2016 5:31:03 PM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them or they more like we used to be?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine
Cruz became a U.S citizen the moment he was born.
Let's say for arguments sake that Cruz was born in another country that did not confer citizenship to the child of two non-citizens. If Cruz was not born a U.S citizen then he would be born with no citizenship whatsoever!
14 posted on 01/16/2016 5:31:07 PM PST by kik5150 (Cruz argued 9 times before Supreme Court judges. Trump argues with beauty pageant judges.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

Yep... and if the framers had intended the president to be “NATIVE born”..... they were smart enough to say that.


15 posted on 01/16/2016 5:32:13 PM PST by kjam22
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

May a child be "naturalized by statute at birth"? I believe "yes"; it is the very definition of an "anchor baby". Are children naturalized by statute at birth also natural born citizens? I believe "no"; this runs counter to the Framers' greatest fears of usurpation of the presidency through children of aristocracy loyal to the British Empire.


20 posted on 01/16/2016 5:36:09 PM PST by so_real ( "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

Well, I think the issue here is what the Constitution means by “natural born citizen.”

The proper way to interpret the Constitution is reading the text as is but if there is a reasonable question about the original meaning of the text, then you look to original understanding and intent.

Certainly there are questions about the meaning of “natural born citizen.” As I see it the argument boils down to whether “natural born citizen” in the Constitution meant at least one parent is a U.S. citizen and the child is born 1) on U.S. soil OR 2) on either U.S. or foreign soil.

From what I can tell, it has been very difficult to find the original understanding and intent of “natural born” to mean he must be born on U.S. soil.

If you can’t get there by a good-faith effort to find original understanding and intent, then you have to look to history to see how it has been interpreted over time.

I guess what makes sense to me is the example of a child of a U.S ambassador to a foreign country who is born in that foreign county. I would think that child would be considered a “natural born citizen.”


21 posted on 01/16/2016 5:37:29 PM PST by Jim W N
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

Now define “naturalized.”


24 posted on 01/16/2016 5:40:31 PM PST by Cboldt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

In a similar vein, it is ludicrous to say that a child is a natural born citizen just because its foreign national mother snuck in and dropped it here, but someone born of a US citizen mother in a foreign country is not.


25 posted on 01/16/2016 5:41:04 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("The goal of socialism is communism." -- Vladimir Lenin)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine
those that have become citizens through the process of naturalization, and those who are citizens by birth, that is the natural born citizens.

A statement that's close to the truth, but not quite.

Some people are automatically naturalized and go through no *process*.....but it doesn't make them natural born. Cruz falls into this category. His citizenship was automatically derived from his mother's, but it is not equal TO it.

Since 1795 the term statutory natural born citizen has been a Constitutional oxymoron.

30 posted on 01/16/2016 5:44:14 PM PST by MamaTexan (I am a person as created by the Law of Nature, not a person as created by the laws of Man.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

An interesting analysis. Thanks for posting.

Peace,

SR


43 posted on 01/16/2016 5:51:40 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine
Summarize the case of Rogers v. Bellei, in particular noting the similarities and differences between the circumstances of birth of Mr. Bellei and Mr. Cruz; whether the Court considered Mr. Bellei to be a natural born citizen or naturalized; and for extra credit, distinguish the majority from the dissent.
44 posted on 01/16/2016 5:51:47 PM PST by Cboldt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

You haven’t given us the definition of two terms:

1. citizenship by birth
2. circumstances of birth

It’s not obvious to me that the first term means literally born in America.

The 2nd term is not equivalent to the first and describes “birth”, not “citizenship”. What’s it’s pertinence to citizenship?


54 posted on 01/16/2016 6:00:31 PM PST by cymbeline
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

Obviously this debate is reignited by the Cruz candidacy so here’s how I like to look at things when its not clear from plain reading (in this case I think it is clear and you explained it well). If one is to allege that Cruz is not natural born, than what is he? Naturalized? But in order to be naturalized, one has to take affirmative steps to accept it. For example if a Canadian came here, he would have to ask for citizenship or in the case of a child have his parents apply for him. He has to forswear allegiances to other countries and take a loyalty oath to America, and be sworn in by a US official. How can one be neither naturalized nor natural born? It’s impossible. It has to be one or the other. So in this case “Natural born” means acquired at birth. It doesn’t matter what soil the birth occurred upon, if he is born a citizen he is ‘naturally born’.

Of course this doesn’t mean other things can’t also be true. For example many countries including the US will consider someone born in their country a citizen too. The USSC has ruled on this issue, saying that citizenship is a matter for each country to decide on their own. There is nothing the US nor even the person himself can do about it if that country chooses to record you as a citizen. If your parents are/were both stationed in a foreign land in a military or diplomatic assignment and you happened to be born outside the US borders, that country could claim you even if you have no desire to accept citizenship. This is important because of the question of the opposite: if they did not claim you and the US law was that you would have to be naturalized, then you would live without citizenship to any country. Not really possible, except in theory.

So if Cruz did not have to apply for citizenship, did not have to take an oath, his parents were American and recorded his birth to appropriate US government agency as being born from a US citizen as an America (e.g. he is ‘naturally born’), then he is a natural born citizen no matter where the birth happened to take place.


57 posted on 01/16/2016 6:08:00 PM PST by monkeyshine
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]

To: John Valentine

How can anyone argue with that?


84 posted on 01/16/2016 6:44:21 PM PST by moehoward
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-27 next last

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson