Posted on 09/08/2015 9:19:57 PM PDT by Steelfish
Pastor And Seminary Teacher Who Was Outed As Member of Ashley Madison Commits Suicide Because He Carried Too Much 'Shame' John Gibson, 56, taught at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminar Was on the list of 32million names released after the huge hack in August His wife Christi said he felt shame, but insisted she would've forgiven him Gibson had also suffered from addiction and depression in the past By WILLS ROBINSON 8 September 2015
A pastor who was outed as a member of Ashley Madison has committed suicide. Father-of-two John Gibson, a teacher at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminar was found dead by his wife after his name was one of the 32 million released during the cyber hack last month. The 56 year old is just one of many purported users of the extra-marital affair site who are believed to have taken their own lives after the huge release of names by online criminals .
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
Mental illness can be a dark place it includes depression which can bring hopelessness. I knew someone who battled it for most of her life and before I met her attempted it up to the point of being ready to cut. She had taken all she could take. She was a very strong Christian and a few years later faced a life sentence to an illness she would suffer nearly 30 more years and with it more depression. It took her about 15 years after I met her before she finally got help for the depression and PTSD from a nearly entire life of abuses up till she was 35 and I met her.
So should we say well I want out of here and kill ourselves? NO! Why not? Because it brings many serious issues to family left behind. But someone desperate enough to take their life is not thinking clear. Their thoughts are distorted by stress, mental illness, hopelessness, etc. The last thing they need to hear is more condemnation and guilt. They need serious professional help no matter what circumstance drove them there by their own fault or acts of others against them.
A friend of mine's dad killed himself. I know a preacher who had the gun ready to do so as well. That was before Christ found him. He was the son in law to my friends dad. I knew a church secretary who had a nervous breakdown and later jumped into a lake from the highest bridge in the city. Why? No one knows. She suffered a breakdown months before and was in the hospital for it. That was back in the early 1970's.
Perhaps the preacher at a point needed more forgiveness and less judgement among others? We don't know and we'll never know. There's an old saying "there but for the Grace of GOD go I". When we see something like this we should not say I'm glad I'm not a sinner like that preacher was. Rather we should say thank you Lord that I wasn't put to that temptation.
I don't mean it as a lecture. LOL. My postings been kinda harsh as of late. Got them things I'm working through that takes a long time to resolve and at times a temper in me comes out.
We who believe and call on His name for salvation are His even though we fail.
No. Never was, that's a really modern theology and interpretation of Christ's message in Holy Scripture.
we cannot earn and we cannot keep our salvation through works, deeds, or beliefs.
I think what we do shows what we really believe. They're inseparable as Christ taught.
But I'm really surprised you include "beliefs" in your post here.
I thought we would agree on one thing, that "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
In your view, is this not part of "beliefs" ?
re: “I accepted Christ as my Savior years ago, but I have not been without sin since that time.”
No Christian is without sin, even after confession of Christ as one’s Savior. We all share in that failure. And, I think I can speak for others who have posted here, that as Believers in Christ, when we become aware of sin in our lives, we do need to confess that, agree with God that we have sinned, then accept His forgiveness and move on in obedience to Him.
Re: “I feel that anytime I commit a sin I need to ask God to forgive me for not living up to His expectations. That certainly includes the big one, murder. If I commit suicide, how can I ask God’s forgiveness before I have to face him?”
Ok, I do agree that suicide does not usually honor God. However, there are a few exceptions - for example soldiers who knowingly throw themselves on hand grenades to save their fellow brothers in arms, or family members who knowingly sacrifice themselves to protect their families. It can be technically suicide, but they do it for the cause of saving the lives of others. Not for a selfish reason.
Some have argued that Samson, when he prayed and asked God the return of his supernatural strength in order to topple the posts that held the building structure together, so that he could kill many of the enemy, even though he know he would also die himself, that God honored that prayer.
Now, of course this seminary teacher did not commit suicide to protect anyone. He did it out of a terrible sense of guilt and shame. Can he be forgiven of that? Yes, I believe so because no where in Scripture does it say that suicide is an unpardonable sin.
Your reasonable question is that, well, how can one be forgiven of suicide if you can’t ask forgiveness? Your dead, therefore wouldn’t you stand condemned to Hell?
The answer is that we are all condemned already before God, prior to our accepting Christ’s forgiveness. We are all completely helpless to “save” ourselves from God’s wrath. Only He could provide the way of salvation. Only He could provide the forgiveness because we could never, on our own, remove the guilt of our sin by being “good enough.”
So, if our salvation did not depend on our goodness prior to our salvation, then it stands to reason that once we have been saved, that we keep our salvation, not because we remember and confess every possible sin (and, how do we know we didn’t forget one?), not because we “earn” His salvation through works (though He certainly expects us to live as His Children) - no, the answer is we are still helplessly dependent on His mercy and forgiveness that is our through faith in Christ. In Hebrews 7:24-25 it says,
“But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.”
In other passages it says that God removes our sin as “far as east is from the west”. God forgives all of our sins of the past, He forgives our present sins, and all those in our future - otherwise, none of us would be able to enter His Heaven.
Now, this doesn’t mean we can live any way we want and still be a Christian. If someone claims to be a Christian, a follower of Jesus, yet shows absolutely no change or difference in their life, they never quit their continual lifestyle of sin - that person is NOT one of Christ’s. Living a continual, habitual life of sin means that person has never really accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
We are saved from God’s condemnation by His grace, His unmerited favor toward us, when we receive His Son as our Lord and Savior. We are kept in His salvation forever by that same unmerited favor. We are totally unable to save ourselves. This is why our salvation rests with Him.
As to this man who committed suicide, we cannot know his heart. We do not know his relationship with God beyond what we can see. Only God knows his soul and heart and mind. We need to keep his family and friends in our prayers.
Re: “If I can say I believe in Christ, and go right on committing sins until I die, and then ask for forgiveness, what was the point of the Commandments?”
I think I answered your question in the preceding paragraphs. All good questions.
For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever should believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
For by Grace are you saved, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
It is repeated over and over and over.
In regards to the beliefs I was referring to: I believe I am asking forgiveness for all sins I have committed to retain my salvation.
I believe I am going to the right church, enough times a week. I am tithing enough, I am ... well you name it.
The only route to salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.
You cannot earn salvation with enough good works, and you certainly cannot “keep” salvation with enough good works, because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no, not one.
>> There was no reason to commit suicide,
2 kids, a wife, himself, family, friends, flock...
Humiliation is one of the most paralyzing emotions. It serves a purpose but arguably not to the point of self-destruction.
Where does it say it’s the only unforgivable sin?
>>In regards to the beliefs I was referring to: I believe I am asking forgiveness for all sins I have committed to retain my salvation....”
Or “I believe I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.”
There’s no real difference here. You ‘believe’ you’ve done what you need to achieve your salvation. You’re choosing to believe can be as much as work as anything else.
And you could be as wrong; what you believe now may not be what you believe later. You do not know and cannot presume to know the future. Only God can.
You chose Christ and you can choose not Christ in the future:
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” - 2 Peter 2:20-21
To the person or people who hacked this private site: Happy Now? Is this what you wanted to happen? Regardless of whether these clients should or should not have been using the service, this is still a tragedy.
I’m not standing in judgement of these people, not in this instance. God will judge them, not me. I am far from pure. I’m focused on the lives and spirits now permanently destroyed. A tragedy that borders on homicide.
When you accept Christ as your Savior, it isn’t an “I believe” moment.
You know. There is no doubt. You will always remember the moment, for ever. It is an unwavering knowledge. If you don’t know this, if you are unsure, then you haven’t accepted Christ as your Savior.
Even if you think, in your worldly selfishness that you can then reject Him, you will still remember when you accepted Him.
No man. Period. You are a “man.” It says no man, that includes you.
That's an odd and relatively modern interpretration. I wonder: Do you maintain that you can choose to follow Christ, but you cannot choose later to not follow Christ? A one time choice without another? Or do you argue that you didn't/don't have a choice either way?
Not to mention in dealing with such a high number there has to be some stolen ID & credit info. A person could get their head blown off and have not done one single blessed thing or even knew the site existed. I'd never heard of it. Nor would I have wanted too. Whoever hacked it needs prison for a long, long, time.
As a Catholic let me say that the only unforgivable sin is cursing the Holy Spirit.
It is not a “modern” interpretation. I have given you scripture after scripture.
You can chose to deny the peace that Christ offers you on this subject and not fully grow in your walk with Him.
To deny that He offers eternal salvation for accepting Him as your Savior is a human failing; it is sin.
As it says in James, when you have broken one law you yave broken them all. No such thing as big sins and little sins in God’s eyes, it is ALL sin.
Could you be wrong? I've been wrong about things I knew "without a doubt."
If you don’t know this, if you are unsure, then you haven’t accepted Christ as your Savior.
Think there might be someone who was absolutely certain - without doubt - that ended up being wrong?
Not you, but someone else.
I don't doubt God, but I think men can be, and often, are wrong. We can't bind God but what we "know without doubt."
His choice both times.
Yes it is relatively. A soteriology not part of Christian doctrine until the 17th Century.
You can chose to deny the peace that Christ offers you on this subject and not fully grow in your walk with Him.
Ah, we agree you can choose to deny a gift from Christ..
To deny that He offers eternal salvation for accepting Him as your Savior is a human failing; it is sin.
I don't deny that at all. That would be a straw man in our debate.
Sorry, typo.
My last post should have ended with:
“We can’t bind God by what we “know without doubt.”
Whaaaaat? Paul wasn't writing in the present tense, when he wrote to the Roman church? Just where is this bit of ignorance found?
Paul was writing in his "here and now". It wasn't a retrospective tome, but instead was talking about his state at the time of writing to a contemporary group of believers, looking astray from the Truth. John was speaking theory, not immediacy. His writing is conceptual, not reality. Indeed, he speaks of our future state like Christ, not as we exist while alive. But, we are part of God's family, grafted into the True Vine...
1 John 3: 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. ...
But, I haven't found many Roman Catholics who even read much of Paul's letters, much less understand them. They mostly prefer talking to dead people and play with beads, and hoping to at least make it to some intermediate state where lit candles can help them down the road...!
Romans 8: 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
1 John 1 2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. ...
[[I accepted Christ as my Savior years ago, but I have not been without sin since that time.]]
If you accepted Christ- you have been FORGIVEN past present and future- You are not ‘without sin’ but you ARE forgiven for those sins-
We SHOULD try to live a ‘good life’ - however, even if we don’t, we will still be with Christ in heaven IF we’ve accepted Him as Savior- We will just forfeit many crowns and our position in heaven will not be what it could have been had we lived more for Christ and less for ourselves-
[[If I commit suicide, how can I ask God’s forgiveness before I have to face him?]]
You don’t have to- You ARE saved/forgiven already- Christ doesn’t keep saving us over and over and over again- His death was sufficient to pay the penalty of sin forever
If you have a minute, I’ll explain a little of old testament law-
in the old testament, men had to ‘keep the law’ as it were- they had to obey God’s laws- commands- if they didn’t they had to keep giving sacrifices to atone for their sins (They were still saved, and this is where it gets a bit complicated- but God commanded they be holy by keeping the law- (old testament people were eternally saved by believing on the coming Lord Jesus, even though they knew not who it would be- the prophets foretold of the Savior- and the OT people put their faith in His coming resurrection- they were born again- just like we are today-
It became apparent that man could NOT keep the laws totally- and ifnact fell very hard many times-
I believe the law was around to show man that he could NOT keep the law, and to show man he NEEDS a Savior to fulfill the law because we are such miserable failures
The law, and the sacrifices were a deal where blood from a perfect lamb or animal would ‘cover the sins’ of man- BUT would NOT be permanent (God required more obedience in Old Testament in order tro try to keep His people as pure and free from sin as possible, and so this system of sacrifices was tedious, and took a lot of work, but it was good In the sense that it reminded man what a miserable failure he was so that he could ‘try harder’ I n the future-
The SAvior’s death however, His shed blood could do what no animal’s blood could because He truly IS the spotless lamb- sinless, unblemished- His blood permanently covers sins- forever
No more need for us to ‘keep the law’ or to ‘atone for sins’ like they did in old testament-
We SHOULD however, regularly confess our sins, and strive to allow the Holy Spirit to keep and guide us, but In reality, many of us fall all the time
To wrap up- there are many many verses I n the bible that talk of eternal salvation- once saved always saved-
You should do a study on it sometime- You’ll be surprised at how many there are and at how much security it brings knowing we can’t/don’t have to carry the burden any longer-
Christ died to lift the heavy burden of the law from us- We no longer have to carry that millstone around our necks-
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