Posted on 07/20/2015 6:13:58 AM PDT by Hostage
Towards the end of the video where John McCain's betrayals are exposed By Vietnam Vets And POWs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hr37eE0nO8&feature=youtu.be
are found the remarks of former Congressman Dornan's which are accurate and highly plausible but are missing a vital part that deconstructs John McCain's character and the myth about his 'heroism'.
Here's the context with reference in italics to the Hanoi Hilton's POW Commanding Officer Admiral James Stockdale in his own words:
Admiral (then a USN Captain) Stockdale and all other POWs inside the Hanoi Hilton confirmed the only way to come home early was if Admiral Stockdale granted permission; there was no other way around it. There were very few early releasees. One was a Seaman Apprentice named Douglas Hegdahl III who had spent night and day memorizing the names of 256 aviators into a rhyme and jingle. He was ordered to be an early release because he had those names to pass on to his debriefer when he got home.
McCain was never ordered to early release although the enemy offered it to him. He refused because of the standing order given by his POW Commanding Officer James Stockdale. Many have construed this refusal as of his own volition. He did obey the order and the consequence of not obeying the order was well-described by Congressman Dornan.
From Admiral Stockdale's book p.254:
There was little concern in any American's mind about the possibility of the Vietnamese throwing anybody out to defame him; we now knew the Vietnamese well enough to be sure that any early releasee would have to buy his way out by groveling on his knees before the Communists, bad-mouthing America. I gave their new release program a name: FRP -- the "Fink Release Program," and that was the way it was to be known. I also issued an order that started on its way to the other cell blocks of Las Vegas and with subsequent movers to the camps elsewhere in the city and outside it: "No early release; we all go home together".
John McCain's betrayals Exposed By Vietnam Vets And POWs:
Wrong! Clinton lied and tried to hide what he did ( "loath the military..." ) asking for special treatment. To my knowledge Trump never did. I have no problem with this. I have no problem with conscientious objectors either, or anti-draft draft-dodging activists.
For the love of God, they tried all this sh!t ( thankfully unsucessfully ) for Carter and then Mondale against Ronaldus Magnus. Yet we have all these folks acting like the enemy media. What are they gonna do if it is Trump vs O'Malley? Vote for the uniform? Idjits.
That is not how a politician usually operates. It is circulated by his sycophants until it sticks like a big lie. The 'crime' occurs when such embellishment is not corrected by "JMC" ( let's just call him Sydney ). Who the hell knows when he first embellished, maybe Brian Williams can look into in all his free time.
The facts are all here in this thread. His fellow POW, highest ranking of all prisoners said 'we all stay and go home together'. That explicitly means that had Sydney accepted release and left and violated orders he would be in deep crap in every way, including politically should he ever be so inclined. His orders just happened to augment his future political career.
But there is way more to this story obviously, such as McCain gaining weight from preferential treatment. This might explain the animosity that so many fellow POWs have for him.
McCain's crime is letting you and others believe the myth. And now everyone is so invested in it that they have gone mad with political correctness and have the temerity to associate attacks on McCain as attacks on all vets and POWs. Guess what? That is the identical garbage used by (D)ummies in 2004 to defend Kerry!
Both McCain and Kerry with their embellishments have just about - but not quite fully - stepped into stolen valor territory. That is another reason so many of us get upset at these two schmucks. It is possible for people to serve, get their honorable, and then embellish later. Happens all the time actually. But the vast majority of those are not actively destroying the country from inside the District of Criminals.
Look up now at the title of this thread, and read it. What Stockdale says nice about Sydney is not contradictory. He had 5 years in there shoulder to shoulder, and he followed his orders. He did his duty. Had he left early he would have something entirely different to say.
You are moving the goalposts. That is a slippery and sneaky little maneuver people do when dealing with cognitive dissonance. In this case having one bubble burst ( 'McCain could have left, he chose to stay, what a hero!' ) and trying to focus on another bubble. It won't work. You have to come to terms with the fact that Mr. Magoo snookered a lot of gullible people.
> “The implication in the headline and article is McStain would have left early if the order was not in place. That is quite a leap and questionable speculation.”
No it’s not a leap. McCain is on record that he was offered early release twice. On the first offer he said in his own words “I will need to think about it”. In the second offer as followup to the first he said in his own words “my answer is no”.
Admiral Stockdale’s words are clear:
“... we now knew the Vietnamese well enough to be sure that any early releasee would have to buy his way out by groveling on his knees before the Communists, bad-mouthing America.”
McCain had to “think” about that.
Message Trump and ask him to insist the the records both Kerry and McCane classified and buried are released
And, who went along with every one of those you list? I think you know the answer to that.
the Journ-o-list media is trying to pivot on Trump “making fun of communion” when in church.
If Trump was down in the polls we would have seen them by now. They media is panicking and trying to stretch this out to buy time for creating damage and give debate prep time to jbush.
I answered the question by how they answered it. When I was young and inexperienced I thought of them as heroes but now understand the meaning of the word as the military sees it. The military does not set out to train or create heroes. It sets out to train troops to fight and follow orders.
Thirty years ago when Ed was my senior coworker and I found out through others that he had been on one of the landing barges that landed on Normandy Beach, I was in awe of him. But that was 30 years ago.
Today I accept Ed’s instruction to me after I exalted his service to hero status. He was following orders and inside his spirit he had already accepted that he was dead when he was waiting for that landing barge to open to direct fire from the enemy. Ed said he and the others with him were not heroes for following orders to storm the beach. I accept that.
War is Hell. All manner of atrocities occur and victims including innocent victims are the result of war. The victims are not ‘heroes’, they are victims.
McCain was beaten and savaged as part of the Hell of War. As many have said on this thread and others he deserves respect for his service but he does not deserve the status of ‘hero’ that the political establishment and their sycophants in the media perpetuate because they use it as cover to hide behind when losing the moral high ground.
When I see the political establishment and their media minions rush to protect McCain under a false aura of hero worship, I say in response:
“YOU LIE!”
Because I am not after McCain alone. I am after the political establishment that he is a part of.
But it no longer matters now. Just this morning after decades of allowing the myth to be perpetuated, and in response to overwhelming pressure from constituents who have had enough of this sad excuse for a human being, McCain finally, finally admits he is no hero.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3314205/posts
It certainly takes the heat and spotlight off the candidates that they really love, to wit: Clinton and Sanders.
If you read my post you would not have written.
Wake up old man.
Never called him a hero. Never said I like the guy.
Take your blithering trolling rant elsewhere.
because I don’t care. Really. McCain will die soon. Trump will never be President. I really don’t care. I just get moved to post when FR fools make outrageous, and stupid statements.
What was it the Liberal media elite called Chris Kyle...?
I haven’t reviewed the Garwood case as in-depth as I need, to make a determination.
Was the media a big champion of him too?
The Code of Conduct introduced after the Korean War states captured military members “will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.”
Military rules go further to dictate who can be released early. Ultimately, any decision to accept early release lies solely with the POW community’s senior ranking officer. The basic rule is “First in, first out”, however the SRO can make other considerations such as those who’s medical conditions would warrant early release, or some other person who’s release would benefit the whole.
Any offer of release by the enemy is considered conditional, and therefore parole, unless an individual had been given permission by the SRO to accept release.
Accepting parole also would be a violation of the UCMJ, punishable by courts martial.
Every military aviation officer knew the Code, and the additional aspects.
McCain didn’t need Capt Stockdale, or Colonel Flynn, or Lt Colonel Risner, or anyone else in the POW senior leadership to forbid him from accepting release.
That said, McCain had been near death a few months prior to being offered release, and it was after he refused that the Vietnamese started the rope torture which resulted in most of his permanent disabilities.
Trump was correct that McCain’s opportunity for heroism was due to his capture. If McCain had not been captured, he likely would have had a middling Naval career (his career was fairly middling, regardless). However, Trump’s comment “I like people who weren’t captured” shows a stunning ignorance of the military. There is a reason the Air Force named its top leadership award after Lance Sijan. There is a reason “Stockdale on Stoicism” is mandatory reading in the Naval Academy.
Lance Sijan, James Stockdale, and Bud Day will all be waiting in the afterlife when Donald Trump arrives. He may not like them when he meets them. I doubt they will like Trump either.
You are correct in pointing that out.
The media and the freaks in their stable called him a ‘coward’, ‘liar’, ‘psycho’, ‘mass murderer’ and on and on and on ......
You’re wrong on a number of counts.
First, some POWs had accepted early release without permission from the POW Commanding Officer. Thus, the order issued by Admiral Stockdale was necessary.
Second, McCain was asked two times if he would accept early release by his captors. The first time he said in his own words “I will need to think about it”. The second time he said “my answer is no”. But you know, he had to “think” about it.
Third, Trump said the truth in responding to McCain calling patriotic Arizonians “crazies”, that McCain was a hero only because he was captured and that he preferred heroes that were not heroes because of their capture.
After DECADES of allowing the media hero myth to be perpetuated, and in response to overwhelming pressure from constituents who have had it with this sorry excuse for a human being, McCain FINALLY admits just this morning that he’s no hero.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3314205/posts
Was McCain the only POW undergoing continuing ill treatment by the North Vietnamese?
Why is McCain generally disdained by his fellow POWs?
Why is McCain loved by the MSN until he is in an election against a (real) Democrat?
Why was McCain involved in the Keating affair?
Why are most of McCain’s most notable Senatorial actions taken as part of a “Gang of __?”
Is it necessary for a Conservative to “reach across the isle” like McCain seemingly does as routine?
Answering the above questions gives insight as to why McCain isn’t held in very high esteem on these boards, or in the minds of veterans.
Following Stockdale’s order is not a sin, it just puts a dent in the McCain’s self promulgated aura of being a hero, to the exclusion of the others around him.
Often quoted from vets...”No son I was not a hero, but I served in a company of heroes...” Something McCain never says.....
OK, go back and really read my posts. You seem to be able to write in english, perhaps you may be able to read english.
Read it slowly, and try to understand what I wrote.
None of this stuff you listed in your rant has any thing to do with what I wrote.
Thats it exactly.
McCain couldn’t beat George Bush in 2000, and either couldn’t or wouldn’t beat Obama in 2008.
His tenure in the Senate has been that of an obnoxious gadfly. 100 years from now he’ll only be a footnote in whatever media future students use to peruse ancient and obscure political data.
So why are people so fixated on this and allowing themselves to be drawn into debate on what is a stupid, irrelevant and distracting topic give the real issues out there?
Agree as well. You said it very effectively.
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