Posted on 05/25/2015 10:05:12 AM PDT by Kaslin
I have no desire to pile on with more comments about Josh Duggar, who appears to be a very serious and committed Christian who has made no excuses for the sins of his youth and who deeply desires to make a positive impact for the Lord in the years ahead. I simply want to share some redemptive thoughts, supplementing some of the excellent statements made by others, including former governor Mike Huckabee and Southern Baptist leader Russell Moore.
1. Jesus really does change people. While critics of the Duggar family want to indict them (along with other, evangelical Christians, especially those with large families) for Josh’s actions, and while many seem ready to throw Josh under the bus, the fact is that while he did sin grievously, through repentance, faith and counseling, he became a new man. Jesus really does transform sinners.
How many of us did wicked things as teenagers? I was shooting heroin at the age of 15 and broke into some houses and even stole money from my own father before being radically converted at the age of 16. I was profane, filled with pride, anger, and lust, yet the Lord had mercy on me and totally turned my life around.
Some of us continued to live like this into our adult years, only to find mercy and new life then, meaning that the transformation was even more dramatic.
For me, the first lesson from this story is this: Whoever you, whatever you’ve done, there is hope in the Lord. As Mike Huckabee said, “‘inexcusable’ . . . doesn’t mean ‘unforgivable.’”
As Paul wrote to the Corinthians, “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
2. There’s no excuse for sin, so own up to it. In today’s culture, almost no one is guilty of anything. It’s someone else’s fault, someone else’s responsibility, not our own. We’re all victims, and the reason we do bad things is because someone else wronged us. Isn’t that how we think today?
I’ve even heard athletes apologize for some really heinous actions by saying, “I’m not happy with the way things happened,” rather than saying, “What I did was wrong and I have no excuses. Please forgive me. I’m seeking to get to the root of my problems and address them.”
What a vast difference between the two attitudes.
As Proverbs states, “Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy” (Proverbs 28:13).
According to the accounts we’ve all heard, Josh confessed his sin to his parents as well as to the proper authorities, and as a family, they worked through the issues. Now, half a lifetime later (he’s 27 and is married with four children), when confronted with a police report about his past, he did not minimize his sin nor did he excuse it. He also resigned from the fine Christian organization for whom he worked, not wanting to bring any negative attention to their work.
When I see someone respond like this, I am filled with hope. In fact, over the years, I’ve seen that people who committed uglier sins but took full responsibility and repented did far better than those who committed less serious sins and tried to sweep them under the rug.
3. Even godly families have kids who mess up badly. Nancy and I only had two kids, and we sought to be godly parents and set godly examples. Yet our older daughter went through a real period of rebellion in her teen years.
As parents, we felt miserable, and I would wonder what I was doing wrong.
Of course, we dealt with her rebellion head on and prayed like crazy for her to really encounter the Lord, but while it was happening, it was terribly deflating spiritually. What kind of father am I? How can I be so ineffective?
Today, we all laugh about those years, and our daughter, who is now 37 and is a devoted wife and mother, is so grateful for the way she was raised. (She and Nancy are the best of friends and are in constant contact.)
The fact that the Duggars, who successfully raised 19 children in the Lord (who can imagine that?), had to deal with one of their kids committing serious sexual sin at 14 should actually encourage other parents rather than discourage them. And perhaps, they can teach us today how this tragic incident helped them come together as a family and draw closer to the Lord.
4. Josh can be an ambassador on behalf of the abused, even helping the abusers as well. While it can feel like your life is over when your past, largely private sins become public (how many of us would like for that to happen?), the fact is that Josh’s future can be bright in the Lord.
He can call on others who are sinning to come clean and get help, using his own example redemptively. And he can encourage those who have been abused to realize that they are not guilty and should not feel shame, also encouraging churches to embrace those who come for help rather than making them feel as if there is something wrong with them.
Why should those who have suffered abuse be stigmatized? They should be our priority for healing and restoration.
5. We need to be careful how we judge. There are many fans of the Duggars who are upset with what they feel is a witch hunt against a godly family, representing one more attempt to remove them from reality TV. (Let me say without qualification that there is life after reality TV, and if the Duggars never do another broadcast, their lives can still be overwhelmingly blessed.)
But would we have had this same attitude of mercy and forgiveness if this was the child of a gay couple? Would we have said, “This proves that gay parents are no good!”?
I certainly believe that kids deserve a mom and a dad and that, optimally, they will do best with a mom and dad, but I don’t indict all gay couples because of the failings of one of their kids
So, if you want to show mercy, be consistent. We can all fall into the trap of selective compassion.
6. There are consequences to our actions, but with God, our worst mistakes can become stepping stones to spiritual growth.
Most of us have done things we wish we could take back, and in some cases, the consequences of our bad choices and sinful actions last for decades. Yet with the Lord, no matter how great the stigma of our sin, if we will humble ourselves before Him, He can take those stumbling blocks and turn them into stepping stones, to the point that the worst things that ever happened to us become the best things that ever happened to us.
To the core of His being, God is a redeemer, and I’m personally praying and believing that for Josh Duggar and his entire family, God will turn this painful situation around for greater good.
Let’s watch and see.
Where are you finding your info?
I took my info right from the police report, where the father says "the program consisted of hard physical work and counseling." And there's more info out there about the program.
I never said he was "breaking up rocks and wearing stripes."
After the Oprah show notified the authorities
Actually, a person in Arkansas contacted both the police and the Oprah show. That person got the ball rolling. The Oprah show merely forwarded that person's letter to the Dept. of Human Services. (That's all in the police report.)
the cops told the father to bring Josh in for an interview. He refused, lawyered up,.
According to the police report, a lawyer called but decided NOT to represent the family. It was unknown at that point (in the police report) if the family ever did hire a lawyer then.
and let the statute of limitations run out
No. The statute of limitations had already run out when the police opened the investigation in December 2006. The detective was trying to "locate an offense inside of the statute of limitations of three years" and was not able to do so. (It's all in the police report right here.)
Note that when the summer was over, he came right back into the house to live with the girls he abused. Must have been nice for them, huh?
He was there for four months from March to July. (That's in the police report.)
What do you think would've happened if he'd been sent to prison? He might've spent the same amount of time in a juvenile hall. Then what?
I'm just curious - What do you think the parents should've done?
I'm not accusing. I'm stating a fact that it is emotional incest for the Duggar parents to hyper-sexualize the environment of their young children.
It's extremely troubling that they had also had no problem with hyper-sexualizing their daughters especially, on national TV.
They bragged about having their young daughters age 12 and under in charge of calling out "Nike" to their younger brothers in public when the girls saw a woman who they jugged to be immodest.
This was going on during the same two year span that their brother Joshua was molesting them. And these poor little girls are in charge of policing their younger brothers eyes!
I mean, is it such a problem for 5 year olds that they have to be told "Nike" which is Duggar code for "don't look at that lady's breasts?" By their 5-12 year old sisters? As ordered by their parents?
That's emotional incest.
There was no reason for those children to be sexualized in such a manner, in private, or on national TV.
Regarding my sins: no, I sure don't want them to be exposed or discussed. No one does. Only someone with a bizarre fetish would actually seek out publicity on national TV knowing they had a sex molester under their roof.
So who's responsible?
Ok, maybe it was. But there is NO REHAB for sexual interest in children. Yes, some men do make themselves never act on it or stop acting on it (or else). Let us hope he has stopped.
Just people a family portrays themselves as conservative Christians on TV doesn't mean they are the real thing in real life.
Actually, Jim Bob claimed he was in a counseling program.
Michelle told the truth and said that Josh was actually sent to live with a friend while the friend remodeled the building that the program was to be housed in.
Hey, you were the one who gushed about how impressed you were with Bill Gothard after meeting him. No one had to “hurl accusations” in order to “get you to go on the defensive and reveal details.” You favor the dramatic, don’t you?
“Your vile imaginations...” You’re making me conjure up images of Dana Carvey’s church lady in my head, now.
But while we’re at it, take a moment to wipe the spittle off your lips, and we’ll get straight what I did and didn’t do, all right?
I didn’t use the word pedophile. I don’t know if it can be applied to a minor who abuses someone younger. But Josh Duggar is an admitted sexual pervert, and if you have a problem with applying that to someone who felt up a five year-old while holding her on his lap, then you, lady, are in the grip of some serious problems.
Yes, you’re one of the few who idolize that weird family to the point of defending sexual perversion from one of their members. Getting so wrapped up in the lives of TV people isn’t healthy. Maybe it’s time to take a step back.
The Duggar father was grinding his privates into his wife’s butt in front of his daughter. Indecent? Without a doubt. I thought they were just weird, but now I’m coming to realize they’re a bunch of freaks. And anyone who thinks that kind of behavior is “cute and sweet” probably shouldn’t be allowed out in public themselves.
What I didn’t do was call the Duggar parents “incestuous.” But that seems to be a thing when you start foaming at the mouth...you try to tack on anything you can think of, hoping it will stick.
Your pious and Christlike accusation that I’m trying to compensate for something that happened to me was something you were throwing around on yesterday’s thread. It’s kind of old now. So who’s guilty of, quote, “hurling unsubstantiated accusations in order to get someone to go on the defensive and reveal detail”, unquote? See above and your previous post to me for exact wording. I think you project too much, unlearner.
I don’t know what should happen to Josh Duggar, really. I think there’s every chance he will re-offend, and if and when he does, it will be over for him-—deservedly so. But if you want to go with your frenzied fantasies of crucifixion and castration, who am I to stop you...
Yes, I have referenced some sick stuff, all right...I’ll give you that. It’s what happens when you’re talking about perverts who feel up little children and their creepy,money-grubbing parents who enable them.
That’s what I read, as well.
Here's what she said (according to the police report) when the detective asked her about the "training center":
She said it was not really a training center. [The detective] asked if the guy XXXX talked to was a certified Counselor. She said no. She said it was a guy they know in Little Rock that is remodeling a building. [The detective] asked if the guy was more of a mentor. She said kind of. Police Report
It sounds more as if she characterized the center differently. They were familiar with "the guy" (Gothard? Harold Walker?) The building was renovated, so maybe renovation was the physical labor the youth there were doing??? Here's more info on the center in Arkansas.
I hope so, too.
What we need to know is when did the center open for clients.
Gothard though is notorious for using the cheap/free labor of the fundie kids who were sent to his various places of “ministry.” So it could be a matter of both supposedly happening at the same time.
“for agreeing with liberals that pedophiles are bad “
Yeah, who doesn’t agree?
Show me one thing I have said otherwise.
I am so sick of the nonstop non-conservative lying that is being repeated over.
It is the worst slander I have ever seen on this forum.
Repeated over and over by LIARS such as yourself.
There is no debate between people here who are against pedophiles and those who favor pedophilia.
So stop the slanderous lies,
You cannot show a single example of anything I have posted saying what Josh Duggar did to his sisters was okay.
If you can show a single solitary example otherwise then do it.
Otherwise, stop being a liar.
I love the part about the victims forgiving him, says who? His dad, who covered it up?
This whole thing raises an issue that has been off limits, at least in threads celebrating the latest birth. When you have that many kids, how the hell can you watch them all and make sure they all get the attention they need? By the time Josh Duggar committed these crimes he was the eldest of 12, I believe. There is simply not enough time in the day. Before anyone reading this calls me anti-family or pro-abortion for saying this, do me a favor and stuff it.
And it’s yet another blow against so called “reality tv” aka fake garbage. Some of this shite on these shows is every bit as “real” as the episode of Star Trek where Janeway turns into a lizard and has tadpoles.
I am not without sympathy for Josh Duggar, he was a young man, God knows what he knew about sex at the time, he may not really be a pedophile (though I’ve heard it does manifest in the teen years). I’m not gonna call for his being strung up, but really, F articles like this. “Josh can be an ambassador on behalf of the abused” WTF?
“They bragged about having their young daughters age 12 and under in charge of calling out ‘Nike’ to their younger brothers in public when the girls saw a woman who they jugged to be immodest.”
Okay, if they really did this and it is not some twisted revisionist version of events, I will admit that is not good parenting. It sounds like an experiment in figuring out a way to “help” teenage boys not lust that should go the way of chastity belts.
Wouldn’t go so far as to agree with it being incestuous though. I think it is good for parents to address sexual issues with their kids, but at an appropriate age. This is drawing attention to sexuality too soon, before they can understand it. But I would call it well-intentioned bad parenting. To be incestuous on the parent’s part it would imply actual sex acts or intentions.
I worked with a woman who had a responsibility to keep confidential student records at a public school. (I did computer and contract video work for them.) She shared that she dealt with a 12 year old boy who had been video taped by his father having actual sex with his mother. His parents were both drug addicts. This kid was expected to assimilate into a regular public school. No teacher, parents, or other children could be made aware of what happened to him to protect his privacy. That is incest. The Duggars teaching their small children to cover up and recognize what is immodest may not be wise, but it is not incest.
“Only someone with a bizarre fetish would actually seek out publicity on national TV “
I think the people who believe in the “quiverful” movement probably see it as their duty to evangelize and proselytize people to their views. I have met quite a number of families who fall into this category. Most of them are nice people. Some are quite off. I can only think of one that I see as role models, and they lived a quiet life as missionaries in a nation where evangelizing is illegal.
Like I said, I have never seen any Duggar show, but I can’t go along with the questioning and accusing about their motives. We can evaluate what people say and do. Intent is not so easy. You have to prove bad intent. And I seriously doubt you will find it. But that is not important really because it is the words and deeds that are in need of evaluation here anyway.
I noticed while the “grinding” was going on, the Duggar girl looked on smiling like it was a common joke and her fiance looked at his shoes, probably mortified with embarrassment.
“You favor the dramatic, don’t you?”
Yes, when forced to respond to outrageous and indefensible accusations.
“if you have a problem with applying that to someone who felt up a five year-old while holding her on his lap, then you, lady, are in the grip of some serious problems.”
First, I am a man, not a lady.
Second, you can stop with the unfounded conjecture. I have never labelled what this kid did to his sisters as anything other than destructive evil of the worst kind. And responding to this repeated allegation by numerous people here is getting quite tiresome and aggravating. So don’t expect me to respond to such malicious things with kid gloves on.
“you’re one of the few who idolize that weird family to the point of defending sexual perversion from one of their members.”
Horrible, pathetic, outright LIE.
There is as much basis for you to say that as to say you are a convicted pedophile with an agenda on FR. How would you like an accusation like that to be hurled at you repeatedly? Stop LYING.
First, I don’t idolize ANYONE. Second, I have never even watched one of their shows. Third, I have never once defended the actions of the boy who molested his sisters. So really please stop lying about that when you know it isn’t true.
“The Duggar father was grinding his privates into his wife’s butt in front of his daughter. “
That never happened. I watched the unedited version of the video on youtube. He showed his wife how to putt. Anyone who sees that as him being sexual with his wife has way too much sex on the mind. Not sexual. Neither is him kissing his wife on the lips.
“And anyone who thinks that kind of behavior is ‘cute and sweet’ probably shouldn’t be allowed out in public themselves.”
You are inferring, because of my opinions which you are quoting, that I should be locked up. That is one sick, tyrannical view you are revealing yourself to have. Someone disagrees with you, they have to be sick, perverted and deserve to be locked up huh?
“What I didn’t do was call the Duggar parents ‘incestuous.’ But that seems to be a thing when you start foaming at the mouth...you try to tack on anything you can think of, hoping it will stick.”
It was Bodleian_Girl who used the term. She corrected me in 199. Sorry. I should have reviewed your comments more carefully.
“I’m trying to compensate for something that happened to me”
Not what I said. Compensating is something else. That is what people do for their own perceived shortcomings. Often though, people who have been hurt or have a loved one who has been hurt, project their own experiences onto different situations and look for justice and vindication in the wrong place. While it is understandable, it does not make it right. Just like it can be understood how some children who are molested go on to become molesters themselves. Doesn’t make it right or excusable. People who have been hurt may see this situation through a distorted and unrealistic perspective. Maybe that is you and maybe it isn’t. Only you really know.
“if you want to go with your frenzied fantasies of crucifixion and castration, who am I to stop you”
Not my fantasies. I’m just pointing out how other people openly call for punishments including horse whipping, castration, death, prison, being butt raped in prison (seems to be becoming a particularly popular punishment with some supposed conservatives nowadays). Calling these things out does not constitute me having fantasies about them, unless by your standard of evidence your calling out the molestation in this case means you seem to enjoy fantasizing about incest. Do you see how ridiculous you sound?
If you stick to making a point about what happened or should be done about it instead of impugning the character of people who disagree (like the left loves to do) and making false, unsubstantiated allegations, it might be a more productive debate.
According to this article, the facility was donated to the "Basic Life Principles" organization in 2000 to be used as a treatment center/ministry.
The man running the program back then (Harold Walker) confirmed that the Duggar son was at the center.
Hey, I was only pointing out that you found it “suspicious” that “supposed conservatives” would “align with leftists” on this issue. When, of course, the issue on which conservatives are “aligning” with liberals here is the condemnation of (a) Josh Duggar’s molestation of his sisters (and others), and (b) Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar’s failure to protect the victims (while at the same time covering up the abuse to protect their financial and political interests).
Okay, let’s hear it then: What exactly would you have done if you were these parents?
Imagine the horror of discovering what your 14yo son has been doing. Now think it through. How would you have handled the situation?
Everyone here is full of condemnation but no ideas on the right way to handle it.
Is that a trick question? I would have contacted the police. Immediately.
And then what should’ve (or would’ve) happened?
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