Posted on 05/01/2015 10:49:42 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
Charges filed against the six Baltimore police officers for their involvement in the death of Freddie Grey will be dismissed, a George Washington University law professor predicted in an interview with The Daily Caller.
John Banzhaf, who teaches public interest law, says that the charges announced by Baltimore states attorney Marilyn Mosby on Friday go too far.
I think a prosecutor is going to have a hard time proving that the actions did in fact cause death, since they seem to have no theory as to how it occurred, Banzhaf said in a phone interview.
Gray was arrested on April 12 after a foot chase with police. He was transported in a police van to a processing center, where he was found unresponsive. He was then taken to a hospital, where he underwent surgery.
His death on April 19 touched off massive protests across the nation, as well as rioting and looting in Baltimore.
Mosby said Friday that Grays arrest was illegal and that officers failed to provide him with medical assistance, even though he asked for it numerous times. A medical examiner ruled Grays death a homicide and determined that he suffered a broken neck and sustained a wound on the back of his head consistent with hitting it on a bolt on the van door.
The driver of the police van faces the toughest charges. Officer Caesar Goodson Jr. was charged with second-degree depraved-heart murder, manslaughter, assault and misconduct. Three other officers face voluntary or involuntary manslaughter charges. The other two face assault and misconduct charges.
But Banzhaf, who is most famous for his successful campaign to get smoking ads removed from TV, says that Mosby will have to show how each of the six charged officers directly contributed to Grays death.
I think it is very difficult to pin responsibility on one person when you have four or five or six each doing a variety of things or not doing a variety of things which in some generalized way contributes to the overall outcome.
Again, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that each of the individuals Officer X, Officer Y, Officer Z what he did or didnt do was a direct cause of what happened, Banzhaf said.
Baltimore police policy dictates that arrestees placed in a police van must be restrained with a seat belt. However, the president of Baltimores Fraternal Order of Police has argued that the policy went into effect just days before Grays arrest. He also said that the new policy was not being properly communicated to beat officers.
Banzhaf says that even if Grays arrest was illegal, as Mosby asserts, the chain of legal causation appears to have been broken. Thus, the officers who arrested Gray should not face many of the charges they are accused of committing.
He presented a scenario in which an officer is charged in the death of an inmate who was falsely arrested and then beaten to death in jail. He said that opening the door to that type of charge creates a slippery slope.
As for accusations that the officers were negligent in failing to provide medical care to Gray even after he asked for it, Banzhaf said that the defendants would likely bring experts who will testify that prisoners often make false claims about injuries.
I think the cops will be able to find lots of experts who will say this is pretty well standard,' Banzhaf said. The officers defense experts would likely argue that lots of people who are arrested start screaming that they are in pain, they cant breath, they are hurt and so on. They do it to get leniency, or to get cuffs removed, and they also do it so that they set up claims stating that they were mishandled by police.
Banzhaf also said he believes Mosby overcharged the officers.
To be fair, many prosecutors do overcharge, he said.
He said that overcharging would be particularly effective in a case with multiple defendants. By overcharging, one defendant is more likely to open up about the actions of a co-defendant.
But given Mosbys flimsy case, Banzhaf says that those who are happy with Fridays announcement may be disappointed if a judge throws the case out.
The people who are cheering saying how wonderful this because they support Mr. Gray may be very sadly disappointed when a judge looks at this and says, Well, Ms. Mosby, you just cant come in here and say at some point somebody did something and we believe this caused his death.
You have to tell me when it happened, Banzhaf said.
He said that besides Mosby overcharging as a prosecutorial strategy, she also may have done so because of public pressure.
I think any prosecutor in her position would recognize that Baltimore is a tinderbox and that if something decisive wasnt done now, it would likely lead to more riots and more problems, Banzhaf said.
So, better to do something now and appear to be decisive, he said.
none, not that its any of your business. Treated overdoses? and addicts? Plenty.
And being held up by two officers after having been dragged over to the vehicle.
What I was driving at is the neck injury could have began with the arrest, outside of the vehicle.
If he later tumbled around in the back of the vehicle, and that either worsened and finalized something of a possible neck injury, or if Mr.Grey suffered all the neck injury in the vehicle, I don't know.
What we do know is that injury was suffered in police custody, and the man is now dead.
But let us all remember there are many black people in places like Baltimore and Fergusen, Mo., who see these same things and are as grieved by it as many of us here (whether black, or so-called 'white').
The grievous part is that there doesn't seem to be enough of any racial background who can find ways to take successful stand against the senselessness of it.
The worst thing about this situation (and there is a lot of crap about it), is that this regime is almost in a 'win-win' situation.
1. If they somehow get convictions on all/most of the charges, then it bolsters their argument that local police are out of control and we must take over....
2. If they dont get convictions, then massive riots will break out all across the country (because of the raised expectations), and they will point to not getting convictions as a different reason that they must take control over local policing....
Monsters.
You are right. Let’s hope the Grand Jury hears all of the evidence and oomes to a righteous decision.
However, as long as it is Never mentioned that he had committed many crimes and the BEST way to not end up like this is to not commit crimes. that group is lost. As long as having six kids without a job or husband like the woman who saved her kid, is not a major issue, all is lost with them.
We will go about living our lives and the black community will wallow in despair no matter how bad some white people feel for a few days about police injustice. There are 1.2 million officers in the country.
Perhaps the best way to make sure EACH and EVERY one of them is completely sane and sound even after seeing insanity in these neighborhoods on a daily basis is to disband all of them, save swat teams. My neighborhood would be no different. Guilty white people could sleep at night knowing blacks are slaughtering each other but at least not by cops.
Heroin does not make one agitated crazed as the original post said here which I replied to
It makes one euphoric and in higher doses pretty darn sleepy
It and all the opioids have a quite similar effect
The only agitated state from heroin is when a junkie can’t get it
Unlike you and the good doctor I have consumed heroin and most of the opioids in my long life ranging from medical care to recreational use
I am admittedly unfamiliar with the newer opioids and derivatives like OxyContin and Opana etc
The notion one takes heroin and goes banshee is poppycock
Many folks here have the heartfelt notions about what drugs do but they’ve never taken
Particularly about marijuana
This disinformation about opioids making one crazed is one reason many folks in serious pain have a hard time getting relief and have to jump through many hoops
Let me be really precise
Heroin or morphine or dilaudid in drug abuse dosage knock your ass out plain and simple unless you are extremely tolerant
If you are addicted you’ll be chasing a nod and trying to keep the sickness of withdrawal away
Withdrawal btw is crazed no question
Highly agitated
Here’s a public example
Rush whom I adore took by his admission very high levels of oxycodone.,,, for his neck..,,,20-30 times what I would take of Percocet 10mg
Did he seem crazed then to you
He didn’t to me.,,,in fact he was very witty and self deprecating even if high
Heroin is a 10 on pain management...used in England
Percocet is a solid 8 in moderate dosage
At his level it might as well have been heroin
That’s my personal experience
If you have any knowledge whereby you’ve taken the drug please share
Otherwise I’ll stick with my own firsthand knowledge
So sound off
I’ll let you have last word
It’s just easier
So try to stay on topic
No strawman and no ad hominum
One thing I forgot that opioids do to the unaccustomed
Vomit
Very common for weak stomachs
Not sure why
I’ve had two open hearts
While they dosing me up in post surgery blue light pods they also administered promethazine
Which is an antihistamine with great anti emetic capabilities
But makes one very drowsy
With my experience of opioids I will add to my knowledge by declaring personally I think pain relief wise dilaudid beats heroin
And then there’s toradol which I get 12 injections every two months in my neck
But no dope effect although very effective for certain pains
I also get steroids injected same way in my neck alternating months
And it’s the best
I’m not making this stuff up
My body is wracked like Nick Nolte is North Dallas Forty
All this makes it manageable
Well you challenged my expertise on I pioids
Unlike you I have done heroin but that’s ok
Heroin is scary for many reasons
It’s legal for pain outside the US
Sure didnt craze me or my fellow travelers then When we snorted or smoked it
It felt warm and menthol breath and relaxed sense of well being
The complete opposite of crazed
Honestly no offense
Are you a 12 step doc or is that not my business either
I’ll give you credit though your homepage is sweet and more forthcoming than most here
And you’re from Texas so I’m gonna be polite
Please don’t tell me you’re a yankee transplant
I’ve lived in Texas a bit all my life and kinfolks in Upshur county
Have a nice day
The part of the story that both sides tend to agree on in that the victim was not restrained by a seal belt while in a seated position.
did he became angry or belligerent enough to start crashing around and head butting the van interior where he was confined but NOT restrained.
MY POINT: The easiest place to snap or damage the spine is just below the brain stem where the spine begins. The victim COULD have UNINTENTIONALLY did this to himself.
If true... he probably went into shock and never fully recovered consciousness until he died, which I believe occurred a week after the incident.
Good one ;’)
Thank God somebody liked it.
;D
I’m a Hospitalist and treat hospitalized patients. Most people particularly occasional users experience what you say. But I have seen plenty of hard core users who are anything but mellow and come up swinging hard
Certainly street drugs can also be mixed with all kinds of interesting and toxic substances that can alter behavior as well
I saw this and couldn’t resist posting. Apparently Garcia was a drooler, not a dueler.
I was a deadhead a bit
I prefer the Pigpen era or anything up thru Blues for Allah
Saw them a dozen times
Garcia was a heroin addict I would wager
Pretty odd bridge from being the prankster band and all that well made LSD to being a tar baby
That was a band that without Capt Trips ain’t the same band
Thank you for the response.
On another thread, we were discussing this and I think his larynx got injured during the initial arrest when one of the cops had him pinned to the ground with a knee on the neck.
The spinal injury (IMHO) appears to have occurred because Mr. Gray would NOT STAY SEATED. I don’t believe the cops injured his spine, nor took him on a ‘nickel ride’.
Try standing up in the bed of a pickup truck with your shoelaces tied together. Have the driver gently take off.
Bet you fall. The laws of physics guarantee it.
I think Mr. Gray is responsible for his own injuries by not staying seated, and that the cops are ultimately responsible for the passenger in their vehicle, no matter how it happened or who it was.
Try this. Tie your shoelaces together and stand in the bed of a pickup truck.
Have the driver do a normal take off. You will probably survive, but you will likely be bleeding after your face hits the bed of the truck and you slide to the rear.
All Freddy had to do to incur the injury was STAND UP. Which he did repeatedly. The police van had to stop twice because he wouldn't stay seated. They put him in leg cuffs to keep him from even thinking about standing up (because it would be stupid and you would fall and break your neck) and he did it anyway.
The larynx injury...and much of the rest too, makes me wonder what the autopsy looks like.
How much can be firmly established that doesn't rely upon anyone's opinion?
The man is dead...of that we can be certain enough(?)
;D
Symptoms of heroin overdose include seizures and muscle spasms. I don’t know how much heroin he is thought to have ingested. Also, if he passed out on heroin, he would have lacked the ability to keep himself seated and steady while the van was in motion.
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