Posted on 01/22/2015 7:14:12 PM PST by jazusamo
Drivers trying to calculate whether it's practical to own an electric car are facing a new math.
U.S. gas prices have fallen more than $1 per gallon over the last 12 months, to a national average of $2.06, according to AAA. That makes electric cars — with their higher prices tags — a tougher sell.
"Fuel savings are not top of mind to many consumers right now," says John Krafcik, president of the car shopping site TrueCar.com.
Automakers have responded by slashing thousands of dollars off the sticker price of electrics. Incentives averaged $4,159 per electric car last year, up 68 percent from 2013, according to Kelley Blue Book. The average for all vehicles was $2,791.
The discounting, combined with new vehicles such as the BMW i3, the electric Kia Soul and the Mercedes B Class, boosted sales of electrics 35 percent last year, according to Ward's AutoInfoBank. But the gains came before gas prices plunged in the second half.
So the discounting will likely continue. In January, the electric version of the Ford Focus was selling for an average of $25,168, or 16 percent lower than the sticker price of $29,995, according to TrueCar.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
Treating me the same a the business deduction for a landlord. That is part of the price of rent.
Without it, you penalize homeowners compared to renters.
True dat!
What it is doing is giving the politicians an excuse to raise the gas taxes. They will say it won't hurt the consumers much because they're already getting a bargain. But when gas prices go back up, guess what?
And which one of those provides an economical energy storage for vehicles compared to lithium?
Reaganez, summarizing thackney’s point, you’ve conveniently left out powerplant efficiency and transmission losses. These are nontrivial omissions, especially the first.
There is a “lies, damn lies, and statistics” sort of case to be made here.
Ultimately, the owner/operator typically really cares little about thermodynamic efficiency. Make the case for the vehicle on real costs, without subsidies, and all the B.S. tends to evaporate.
Electric cars are too quiet. I estimate that 11.4 billion pedestrians, dogs, cats, birds, mice, insects and possums will be run over by electric cars this year because they can’t hear these too-quiet cars coming down the road. Manufacturers need to add noise to electric cars for safety. Noise I would approve of are:
1. Junker dive bombers.
2. Hillary screeching.
3. A hippie stepping on a land mine.
4. Boehner crying.
5. Chernobyl melting.
6. Plucking nose hairs.
It’s for the children, people.
If the latest breakthrough on graphine fuel cells holds up, lithium batteries will look expensive in comparison.
Ultra capacitors keep making remarkable advances. (Biggest problem is their propensity to discharge all power instantly.) Raw materials isn’t the problem, manufacturing fractal-surface plates is (but is solvable).
A number of other alternatives are expensive now, but (like many manufacturing issues) is easily solved & made cheap once there’s enough demand providing a big enough pile of money to push thru a technological barrier.
Another analogy:
By some past predictions, we shouldn’t have anything close to the gasoline distribution infrastructure we have now, and shouldn’t have any gasoline to run thru it. “Peak oil” keeps getting pushed back.
I’m and electrical engineer, specialized in power systems. I’ve read countless articles about those “IFs” for decades. Neither technology is new, but the non-technical writing keeps growing.
And likewise, the EV tax credits help mitigate the penalty early adopters suffer in funding development of infrastructure which later adopters will use without paying instantiation costs.
The federal government should not be selecting technologies to win over others. Why isn't the subsidy applied to natural gas based fueling? Because it doesn't adequately support the liberal agenda.
I’m a computer engineer (to wit: half an EE and aware of power systems tech), and have watched numerous “impossible” technologies on various fronts become mainstream given enough demand.
We’re engineers. We solve problems. Portable electricity storage is a particularly tough nut to crack, but we’re making progress on that one too.
What’s the recharge time?
I’m not claiming the technology won’t improve.
But the Lithium Ion is the best economic choice we have today. To pretend otherwise is not being honest.
“but based on my math I still pay 21¢/gal “
Let’s look at the Nissan Leaf. The Nissan Leaf states it gets 126 mpg equivalent (MPGe).
Nissan Leaf: Miles per Kilowatt Hour of electricity = 3.3 miles per kWh on flat roads and not accelerating. (Real world tests show only 2.8 miles per kilowatt hour.)
To go 60 miles, 18 Kilowatt Hours of electricity are needed by the Nissan Leaf.
Electricity = $0.125 (12.5 cents) per Kilowatt Hour on average in the US. (Low of 8 cents, high of 37 cents. I pay the average of 12.5 cents.)
18 Kilowatt Hours @ 12.5 cents per Kilowatt Hour = $2.27. This also assumes no loss of energy due to the chemistry of the batteries, charging heat, cable losses, etc., which there is loss of energy in all that but we have no figures to go on so we will not add those energy losses at this time.
A cost of $2.27 with gas at $1.75/gallon = 1.30 gallons of gas equivalent, which equals 46 MPGe at 60 miles total distance travelled, not 126 MPGe as the Leaf states.
To actually get to 126 MPGe, gas would need to cost $4.75 with electricity at 12.5 cents per kilowatt hour. So, it looks like those MPGe numbers are based on the highest gas prices we have ever seen, and those were short lived prices, and of average electric costs.
When gas costs come down so does that MPG equivalent rating. Also, as electricity costs increase, that MPG equivalent rating falls even further. People paying 17 cents for electricity, such as in Vermont and Rhode Island, will see only a 33 MPGe rating with gas at $1.75.
This is one reason why liberals like Obama need high gas prices, to justify electric cars. Luddites hate machinery, oil, and gas and want to get it banned by whatever lies are needed. Ironically, they also hate coal for those electric plants to power those electric cars. Ten years ago coal produced 51% of our electricity in this country. Obama has been closing coal plants like crazy so we are down to 40% coal production of electricity. That is causing an increase in electric rates, so that MPGe will fall even further as that happens.
So, no, you are not getting 21 cents per gallon equivalent. Compared to other light weight gas vehicles that can also get 46 mpg, such as the VW Jetta, you have no savings at all at 46 MPGe.
“1. Junker dive bombers.”
LOL! I vote for the dive bomber!
Of course, it would be hilarious to have a Leaf go by sounding like a Harley!
Connecticut is over 20¢/KWH. New York is 19.4¢
http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a
I always thought I would want for sound a Top Fuel Dragster for initial acceleration combined with a old steam locomotive for constant speed.
I don't see why anybody would buy something to suffer over the purchase. When you bought the car, the pluses out weighed the minuses. Electric cars pay no gas tax so those owners aren't contributing to roadway infrastructure which would be one of the pluses..
So what are you arguing about? Yes, today, lithium makes the best portable (up to car-sized) electricity storage tech. I thought we were discussing the future, when demand will be great enough to warrant pushing other technologies to market viability.
Then why should the federal government be selecting certain real estate to win over others?
>> “There are other electricity storage and production technologies other than batteries.” <<
.
To quote Professor K.M. Abraham, materials science, Northeastern University:
“We are reaching the limit of what a good battery material can do. Going beyond what we have now is taking a new understanding of Chemistry, Materials Science; people are working all over the world on it, but there is nothing on the horizon.”
Perhaps prof. Abraham needs to acquire your knowledge?
.
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