India's Election: The Next Prime Minister Is A Dangerous Man

The New Republic ^ | May 16, 2014 | Isaac Chotiner

[INVAR]

Interesting -- where exactly did the cops bust into the Church?

Andrha Pradesh.

and where did the mob break into the man's home?

Chennai. Tamil Nadu - the very place you said does not have "this sort".

I'm telling you it does.

[steve86]

BJP = Hindu Cultural Hegemony

Very little chance corruption will decrease -- it is endemic. Might or might not be moves toward capitalism in certain sectors. Guaranteed that Christians won't be better off than they were before.

[INVAR]

BJP = Hindu Cultural Hegemony

Very little chance corruption will decrease -- it is endemic. Might or might not be moves toward capitalism in certain sectors. Guaranteed that Christians won't be better off than they were before.

Exactly what the Christian brethren in India have told me and what I think will prove to be the case.

Hindu culture does NOT in any way, shape or form, permit low castes and/or those outside their caste station (i.e.: CHRISTIANS) from advancing or bettering themselves because Hindu religion demands that those born into low castes or outside of accepted stations must suffer to pay for the sins of their past lives.

The upper castes will be the only ones to benefit from Modi's Capitalist reforms. Trickle Down is not something that is possible in Indian society - because they fight against it now.

It's the Ruling Caste in India, same as the Ruling Classes here work to deny and prohibit us lowly 'unwashed Tea Party types' from advancing our agenda and principles via our representatives.

[Steelfish]

I must admit you make some good points.

What was meant by the “Ganges” culture is that Hinduism is suffused with paganistic rituals even at the expense of serious health hazards. I do believe that all Hindu priests must be of the Brahmin caste and in many Indian villages low caste people do not drink and eat from the same utensils of the higher castes. India also has an entrenched dowry system and selective gender-based abortions are all too common even among Indians living abroad.

[steve86]

Did you notice that dear friend “MBT ARJUN” has been “banned or suspended”.

[Cronos]

They were not personal checks, they were bank checks, equivalent to cashier’s checks. I do not know where they were cashed. The recipient family did not have a bank account. Now, with the help of the one friendly Hindu teller, they have a bank account and receive bank wires from my wife.

1. ok,that is weird -- as I said, most people have bank accounts, but I'll assume that the family members were poor as you corrected me

2. The stealing of bank checks if they are to encasher with no checking, then that happens in India to all -- no caste or creed barrier to being robbed

it's sad that it happened to your wife's family, but that was thievery and not targeting as they were Christians

[Cronos]

No, I'm not going to ask for the street address and unit -- I ask for the district because Bandra West is a Catholic area as was Mazagoan and Matterpakaday and as is Bassein/Vasai and Borivali

If your family was/is living in Mazagaon, I'd understand.

[Cronos]

Not defending Modi — he’s a politico. I’m arguing that your point of Hindus being inherently anti-Christian is wrong and also that your argument of Christians WILL be persecuted by this Modi sarkar is also wrong.

[Cronos]

Ok, thanks for this information — Andhra I could undetrstand, but Chennai — I’m shocked.

[Cronos]

Let's take your points 1 by 1, steve:

1. Hindu cultural hegemony --> "cultural", then yes. And note that even Catholics and other Christians are culturally "Hindu" i.e. Indian -- remember that many Christians remember if they are Brahmins as well -- go to Mangalore and you'll see many descendents of Shenoys and Prabhus who are Christian
   Hindu RELIGIOUS hegemony -- I doubt it. There is the possibility of Hindu riots against Christian, but I doubt that Modi would do anything like this now when people will want him to focus on getting the economy into shape. We can worry about that in the last of his 5 years. that time has a higher probability
   
2. "very little chance corruption will decrease - it is enemic" -- corruption has decreased in India since the ending of the license raj -- it is endemic, but is decreasing. Also, as Modi showed in Gujarat, he did decrease corruption
   
3. " Guaranteed that Christians won't be better off than they were before" -- actually Christians in the past 20 years have arguably benefited the most with economic reforms. Why? Because Christians are better educated and tend to know English. Also, Christians aren't part of the elite class of business men etc. (generally), so the dismantling of those privileges will disproportionately help Christians

[Cronos]

INVAR: Hindu culture does NOT in any way, shape or form, permit low castes and/or those outside their caste station (i.e.: CHRISTIANS) from advancing or bettering themselves because Hindu religion demands that those born into low castes or outside of accepted stations must suffer to pay for the sins of their past lives.

Invar, then how do you explain the fact that the untouchables are the ones that have advanced the most in UP in the past 15 years? unlike Brahmins they are not tied to land, so have used their educational gains to help improve their lot heavily

In fact Modi himself knocks out your statement -- he's an OBC -- other backward Caste, not a Brahmin, not a Kshatriya (ruling warrior caste) -- yet he's now the ruler over Brahmins, defeating Brahmins (the Gandhi family are Kashmiri Pandit Brahmins) as well as defeating the Brahmin Advani in his own BJP party

Hindu culture -- you can't call Hindu culture as rigidly "you can't do this as its your caste" -- example Valmiki, a non-Brahmin writing the Ramayana or the Bhonsale (Brahmin)ruling the Maharashrans

Granted, those are outliers and the majority strain for the past hundreds of years has been the opposite, but Hindu culture evolves

The upper castes will be the only ones to benefit from Modi's Capitalist reforms. Trickle Down is not something that is possible in Indian society - because they fight against it now. -- sorry, but you have the example of Gujarat where Modi was the Chief Minister for 14 years and in that, the upper castes were NOT the only ones to benefit -- even Moslems benefitted

[Cronos]

What was meant by the “Ganges” culture is that Hinduism is suffused with paganistic rituals even at the expense of serious health hazards. -- well it is a Pagan (non-Christian) religion more akin to the religion of all of Europe before Christianity (in the sense that the wide variety of religions under the umbrella term of hinduism includes athiestic religions like the Arya Samaj or jainism, to various religions that say Shiva is the only real god or Vishnu is the only real god.) -- and true about at the expense of serious health hazards

I do believe that all Hindu priests must be of the Brahmin caste -- mostly yes, but particularly in south India there are non-Brahmin priests for local religions.

and in many Indian villages low caste people do not drink and eat from the same utensils of the higher castes.

I'm sure that still exists, but it lessens each day -- as I pointed out above, the untouchables and lower castes now have more political AND economic power, and "money talks" -- perhaps the upper castes mutter about it, but if your boss is an untouchable, then you have little that you can do.

India also has an entrenched dowry system and selective gender-based abortions are all too common even among Indians living abroad. -- "entrenched" - again, this is changing now, ever since women have got more educatio nand more political rights. It's still there but weakening. Yes, gender-based abortions which is vile -- I'm waiting for the day when parents realize there is a shortage of girls and start having a reverse dowry -- "you want my daughter to marry your son? What's the dowry HE is going to pay?" :)

[INVAR]

Invar, then how do you explain the fact that the untouchables are the ones that have advanced the most in UP in the past 15 years? unlike Brahmins they are not tied to land, so have used their educational gains to help improve their lot heavily

I lived in your country, so I've seen how the untouchables and Christians attempting to advance themselves are treated and regarded by your society. It is not this rosy picture you are attempting to paint. I've never seen such abuse, mistreatment and misery of human beings like I witnessed in your country.

In fact Modi himself knocks out your statement -- he's an OBC -- other backward Caste

There are millions of castes within castes. But generally the political castes are beholden to the Hindu Brahmin religious leaders who may or may not be politicians.

Modi represents the surge in radical Hinduism that seeks to purge India of everything 'foreign', including religions that are not Hindu. The Christians I serve are frightened about what they already are seeing the Hindu mobs chanting and saying they are going to do to Christians with "Modi's blessings".

They have good reason to fear.

[lentulusgracchus]

Goa was where the Portuguese priests were based who missionized the Indians from the 16th to the 20th centuries.

[lentulusgracchus]

...the PLO still is to some extent nationalist rather than Moslem in orientation.

Correcto. The PLO and sister groups (George Habbash's PFLP etc.) were always socialist and Arab nationalist in character, much like the United Arab Republic and its Ba'athists that preceded them (including Gamal Abdul Nasser of Egypt, part of whose party Anwar Sadat was, too, before he was shown his danger [from the KGB and clients] by CIA agents and turned on the Soviets and Egyptian Communists who planned to knock Sadat off and turn Egypt into a full-blown atheist-communist "people's republic").

[Steelfish]

Your balanced and well-reasoned response is very much appreciated.
Thanks

[Cronos]

I never said it was a rosy picture. As I said " that have advanced the most" -- there is still discrimination, but it is decaying. It will take more than a couple of decades to wipe out two millenia of prejudice

Christians are not discriminated against -- look at the Christians in Bombay in various companies who do very well. Christians who are new converts in the village areas, yes, there is discrimination as you point out, but don't make it a blanket all bad (and it's not a blanket all good either)

[Cronos]

Goa was one of the places the Portuguese were based at -- the others being Daman and Diu and Bombay

however, there were Catholic missionaries before and after not connected to Portugal

[Cronos]

No worries. Things are not rosy in India for Christians, but it's not all bleak and doom either

Christians are legally free to practise and preach, and yes there are places where they are discriminated against, but there are places where they dominate (the north-east). It's just very difficult to make any generalizations about India -- it doesn't work.