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To: MarDav
So, then, your answer to the question posed to Bono, ‘Who is Jesus?’ would be something like, “a real person who has been re-invented and re-invented over time by those who needed someone to believe in,” or something like that. Is this correct?

Yes, that sums it up.

The quotes you include from his trial confirm what I've been saying. Jesus was evasive. "You say I am," he says over and over, which is a non-answer. He won't say YES or NO, he plays this little game because if he denies it, he'll lose his followers, and if he confirms it, he'll fall prey to his enemies. This is a very cagey move by someone who very clearly does NOT want to be sentenced to death. However, he couldn't avoid it, and... well, that was it.

226 posted on 04/18/2014 2:30:15 PM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: A_perfect_lady

Christ isn’t being “cagey” and He certainly isn’t trying to get out from a death sentence (”Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.” - does that sound like someone trying to “beat the rap” or cop a plea to you? He isn’t playing games. He isn’t avoiding the question. He isn’t worried about losing His followers; He told them they would forsake Him! You are demanding that He provide a very specific answer, “I am the king of the Jews,” and as He doesn’t use those words, you conclude He is being disingenuous. Perhaps it is as simple as this: He won’t say “Yes, I am the king of the Jews,” because He is more than that—He is the King of Kings!

Now, as you’ve acknowledged, you believe He is, for all intents and purposes, a man-made invention piled upon an actual historical figure...my question is this: Where’s the flaw? Where’s the human error in His character? Where’s the lie, the ulterior motive, the shading of the truth, the malice aforethought, the lust, the greed, the avarice, the streak of pride that would, should, must accompany any human character, as all humans are flawed? Where’s the error? Where’s the sin? Where’s the point in “the myth” that indicates this is simply a human creation drummed up to provide people with someone to believe in?

You said to someone elsewhere that you are an English teacher. Well, so am I, and one thing I usually find myself doing in the classroom with my AP students is to try to reconcile plot flaws, character weaknesses that invariably crop up in stories written by (and about) humans. I’m sure you’ve found yourself dealing with some of those same blemishes in the stories you’ve taught. Where’s the blemish on Christ?


227 posted on 04/18/2014 2:58:08 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: A_perfect_lady

What caused you to click on this particular thread in the first place, Lady?


228 posted on 04/18/2014 3:10:27 PM PDT by SouthernClaire (GOD BLESS AMERICA)
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To: A_perfect_lady
He won't say YES or NO,


Luke 23:3

So Pilate asked Him, saying, "Are You the King of the Jews?"

And He answered him and said, "It is as you say." 

 

 

Even a poor English teacher should be able to parse the above.

 


267 posted on 04/18/2014 8:36:24 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: A_perfect_lady

......”You say I am,” he says over and over, which is a non-answer. He won’t say YES or NO, he plays this little game because if he denies it, he’ll lose his followers, and if he confirms it, he’ll fall prey to his enemies”.....

This is a good place to resolve some of the questions you have if or not Jesus admitted who he was.....remember in every circumstance Jesus is in there are moving parties all around...there’s ‘the crowd’, ‘the deciples’ and then an ‘individual ‘will always come into view ......and it is here Jesus gets personal...

So actually we have a situation where Jesus is being accused by the Jewish leadership before Piolet.... but it’s the implication of their accusation that threatened Pilate.
Their accusation against Jesus consists of two diabolical lies:....He is teaching others to resist the payment of taxes to Rome......He is forming a rebellion to Rome’s authority by declaring himself king.

The implication is that Pilate would be betraying Rome by refusing them. They actually juxtaposed Jesus against Rome despite the fact that Jesus always respected Roman civil authority and taught the people to render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar.

Pilate’s first instincts were correct. He knew the whole issue was about spiritual pride. He saw that Jesus somehow threatened their position and false piety.

The word “no” is one of the tools used to defend a personal boundary. We are required by God to say no to evil. He said “no” to their demand upon his authority.
“For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him.” Matt. 27:18

During this time, Pilate also had a conversation with Jesus recorded by John. Some parts overlapped with the account of Luke.

“Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

“Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”

“Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied.... “It was ‘your’ people and ‘your’ chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. (Note the disengagement from the crowd, had they been his servants they would be fighting piolet) But now my kingdom is from another place.”

“You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered,... “You are right in saying I am a king..... In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth..... Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

“What is truth?” Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him. “” (John 18:33-38)

Amazingly Jesus is still ministering as He steadily moves toward Roman brutality.....He is perfectly calm speaking candidly and confidently to Pilate, man to man, He adds shape to Pilate’s test and his need. .....It centers on his commitment to truth..... Pilate’s answer,.. “What is truth?”,....which sounds like he is not clear that absolute truth exists....which is unfortunate because he is going back outside ‘to defend Jesus’ before a mob of liars.

......The Jews insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.” When Pilate heard this, he was even’ more afraid’, and he went back inside the palace.

“Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer............(he had already answered this)
“Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”
From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free,...... but the Jews kept shouting,.... “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.” (Therein is Piolet’s delimma.)

“When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”” (Mat. 27:24)

Like all politicians he passed the buck.


440 posted on 04/20/2014 5:13:38 PM PDT by caww
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