Posted on 04/17/2014 11:35:37 AM PDT by SkyPilot
U2 frontman Bono talks about his faith and answers the question "Who is Jesus?" in the video below. Click play to watch.
Link Here with Video (2 mins 46 secs)
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
Ahhhh.....hmmm.
LOL! Well, that’s true. Religious / faith beliefs notwithstanding.
:)
Did you miss that line in verse 17?
. “... even all the Gentiles who bear my name...”
Had you ever read the (dread) Old Testament, you would know well who bore his name ( or to say it another way, “the people that are called by my name” )
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You seem to have waded in a lot of other places.
Why so reticent now?
So; you admit to not really caring about what the JEWS thought about OT prophecies about the Messiah??
Invert??
I merely post the facts.
You seem to have a have time accepting them.
So you admit to having no list.
I suspected this was the case.
You have some point here?
No, I'm approaching it wondering why he made certain that they believed he fit the criteria in the first place.
I do, however, find it interesting you're referencing Josephus as I understood you were not open to anything for reference outside and only the KJ version of the Bible.
No, I'm just trying to find the oldest possible references that I can still read myself. I can't read Greek or Aramaic, but I can read Middle English (which is essentially what the KJV is). Therefore, I don't want any newer version.
I can read English translations of Josephus, and if I can find the oldest possible ones, those will be the ones I'd cleave to. Because the fewer translation processes they have gone through, the less tinkering they have been subject to. Do you understand?
...Am saying this since you'll look toward an historian, subject to his own leanings, yet you argue that the NT authors, many who actually lived and walked with Jesus, are somehow less reliable....It would certainly be logical to place more significance on those who were actually with Him.
I believe Josephus and Paul equally, in that I think they recorded what they wanted recorded. That Josephus seems to have had no vested interest in Jesus either way makes him more reliable than Paul where that one particular story is concerned.
But let me say that one doesn't have ‘to fit’ Jewish requirements to the Biography/Prophecies of Jesus.
But do you see there are two different ways they can fit? One is that Jesus' life is changed to fit the Messianic narrative, and the other is that the Messianic narrative is changed to fit Jesus' life.
Because when I go to other sites, I know exactly what I'm looking for. I don't know what you want me to find so it's easier if you find it and bring it here.
Modern day Jews? No, I don't care what they think. I'm only interested in the ones who were alive when Jesus appeared on the scene... they were the audience Jesus sought.
Yes, I do have a point.
You do not know who the gentiles were/are.
You totally invert the meaning of Acts 15, which was intended to gradually reintroduce the gentiles of the northern tribes of the dispersion to the Torah that their forefathers had abandoned.
Since you reject Yeshua’s words “I am sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel,” and yet insist that you believe on his name, it appears that you are a deeply confused individual.
How can you claim to believe him if you don’t believe a word he said?
You don’t believe that we are to follow his commandments (all of them) and you don’t believe he knew who he came to save, so what do you believe?
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>> “they were the audience Jesus sought.” <<
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No, they were not. He states who he sought in Matthew 10 and 15. He ‘sought’ “the lost sheep of the House of Israel,” and not one Jew in the first century fell into that class of persons.
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Well, it was Jewish territory he traveled, and Jewish people he sermonized to. He didn't leave the country before the crucifixion, far as I remember.
You stated...” there are two different ways they can fit? One is that Jesus’ life is changed to fit the Messianic narrative, and the other is that the Messianic narrative is changed to fit Jesus’ life.”
You've failed to mention what is obvious and central ...The third being; that Jesus was and is indeed exactly as recorded...the Messiah. No fit to it, He is just as he said, and just as recorded.
.... You've just proved my point, that you've apparently ‘already’ determined Jesus is NOT the Messiah, and you are here to prove that he isn't in order to sustain your position and influence others according to that......Are you?????......Which would account for you saying you would believe Josephus over Paul, though Paul himself spent time with Christ. Jews do have a tendacy to believe Josephus's writings, but only to the point that his writings support their position.
Unfortunately you contradicted yourself by saying...”I'm wondering why he made “certain” that they believed.” When in fact back thread your question was...”why DIDN'T he make them believe.” ...You are wrapping yourself in knots here. Better that you accept the fact they had a choice to believe or not what Jesus said and did...as do all even now. Interesting your saying you not only read and reference Josephus, but you "cleave" to his writings......but you indeed said before you "Only" use the KJ version as a point of reference.
It's important to consider that Jewish people are, for the most part, purposely blinded by God to who Jesus is and the facts supporting Him. This is of course for the Gentiles advantage.....proving again Gods great love for all mankind.
But Jewish people have a difficult time understanding that God said HE would bring a "new covenant", not as the old, which would allow the Gentiles (non-Jews) to be included in His great plan for all of mankind to know and love Him. This does NOT mean He pushed Israel aside.... Gentiles do not replace Israel or the Jews, though unfortunately that has crept into some Christian circles...it's simply not true......... The inclusion of Gentiles in God's family, and the end of the law, these were naturally troublesome matters for people who had been raised under the Mosaic system..... Even some who had believed in Christ struggled with these things. Which Paul then addresses clearly.... "No, God has not utterly rejected the Israelites!"
In Deuteronomy 32:21, God says;
“They [the people of Israel] have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. .....So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.”
God knew well that his people would again go astray. But he has a plan to win them back... He’s going to make them jealous.....'Paul' reiterates this promise from the Torah in Romans 10:19.... and continues by asking in 11:11,.... “Did they [the people of Israel] stumble in order that they might fall? By no means!..... Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous..... Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, ...how much MORE will their full inclusion mean!”
It was God’s plan that his 'new covenant' would extend the possibility of 'relationship with God' to all the peoples of the earth... and that this would also cause the Jewish people to see what they were missing out on!
Even so it's difficult for them to accept...I have friends who are Jewish....they too struggle yet they are open for conversation around the scriptures pertaining to Jesus as well conversations of the old testament scriptures and the old covenant meaning to them.
Listed in a pamphlet published by the Vatican Exhibit 2002 Foundation is an ancient fresco that depicts St. John the Baptist, the last of the Old Testament prophets.
The image of St. John will be among the 12th and 13th century frescoes that go on display in Lubbock in June, during the Vatican Museums Exhibition at the Museum of Texas Tech.
The Rev. Malcolm Neyland, foundation director, said that St. John revealed the Messiah to the world.
Unlike many among the Hebrew tribes, John believed that the promised Messiah's kingdom would be supernatural rather than earthly, Neyland said.
“You have the Davidic line who believed the Messiah would rule over the earth,” he said. “So when Christ said, ‘My kingdom is not of this earth,’ they charged that he was a false prophet,” Neyland said.
The Hebrews or Israelites believed that the Messiah promised by the prophets, from Moses and Abraham, through Isaac and Jacob, would be a king who ruled on earth, Neyland said.
“That meant when their king came, with one mighty stretch of his arm, he would wipe away their enemies,” he said. “But John recognized that Jesus was the one we had been waiting for all those centuries. And John, upon seeing Jesus approach, said, ‘Behold, the lamb of God,’ acknowledging Christ.”
The story of John baptizing Jesus marks the beginning of Christ's ministry, Neyland said.
“By (Christ's) own example, he would show what God the Father wanted for his people was to enter his kingdom in heaven,” Neyland said. “So there would be death, then new life. As Christ said, ‘Unless ye die, ye shall not enter the kingdom of God.”
John the Baptist preached that when the Messiah came he would bring salvation, but not through establishing a kingdom on earth.
“The signs of the Messiah's arrival would be, the blind would see, the lame would walk, the dead would rise, which is exactly what Christ did,” Neyland said.
snip
When John and Jesus did meet, John made clear to all that he was only a messenger, and that Christ was the Messiah, the promised one, Neyland said.
Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John, but the prophet asked Jesus why he would seek baptism when his soul was free of sin.
John's words implied his recognition of Christ as the Messiah, and after baptizing Jesus, a voice from heaven was heard saying “This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased,” (Matthew, iii, 15-17).
snip
But Josephus writes a different story containing an alternate reason for St. John's arrest.
“As great crowds clustered around John, Herod became afraid lest the Baptist should abuse his moral authority over them to incite them to rebellion, as they would do anything at his bidding,” Josephus wrote. “Therefore he thought it wiser, so as to prevent possible happenings, to take away the dangerous preacher ... and he imprisoned him in the fortress of Machaerus.” (Antiq., XVIII, v, 2).
Whatever the prince's motive, it is certain that Herodias nourished a hatred against John:
“She laid snares for him: and was desirous to put him to death.” (Mark, vi, 19)
http://www.vaticanexhibit.com/stories/011502/new_johnthebaptist.shtml
also:
You are correct Lady..it was to the Jewish people Jesus went to.... The Jews were given privilege to believe in Him first and this was Jesus’ initial mission (Rom 1:16). But the mission did not end there since Jesus continued his mission to the Gentiles ‘as the risen Lord’.
When Jesus was close to entering Jerusalem, (this passage always touches my heart as well).....
...”He saw the city and ‘wept over it’, saying,. “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace!... But now they are hidden from your eyes....”
Mt. 23:37-39 .....“”O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
....In God’s sovereign plan He sent His Son to His own (Israel) first. ....They in turn were to bring the gospel news to the Gentiles.
Jesus instructed his disciples...... “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt 28:19).
>> “Well, it was Jewish territory he traveled...” <<
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Mostly no.
He spent more time in the Galilee than in Judea. He avoided Judea because of the Pharisees, and because his mission was not to a blinded generation of Judah, but to the out of covenant “gentile” people of the dispersion of the House of Israel.
It was at the end of his Earthly ministry that he returned to Judea to fulfill the Passover.
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I would hope that isn’t so with Lady, however it’s appearing there is more to this then just inquiry. An agenda peeks up now and then.
Trouble is they expect the Messiah to do it all at once and do not equate to spans of time pertaining to God's plan....it's all or nothing at all.
I think they forget how long it took them to get to the promised land!..and all they had to learn to prepare them before they arrived.
I also think they have forgotten why God called them out of the nations...it wasn't because they were so special because they were actually the weakest of nations. But God does seem to enjoy taking the least expected to accomplish his will.
They had a purpose, which was to rid the pagan population which had become so vile in God's ears......Warriors if you will. So it took some time to teach them who their leader was, who would lead the nation etc. etc. and help them see their strength and wisdom was in God alone, not their own strength or wit. They had to learn to be obedient to God as well...
So it's really surprising to me they think the Messiah will do it all at one time, which again proves God does not act according to mans will, rather he changes the will of men to align with his own.
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