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To: caww
... you are approaching Jesus from the position that Jesus was NOT accepted as the Messiah by the Jews rather than ask what was it that convinced the Jews He was the Messiah.

No, I'm approaching it wondering why he made certain that they believed he fit the criteria in the first place.

I do, however, find it interesting you're referencing Josephus as I understood you were not open to anything for reference outside and only the KJ version of the Bible.

No, I'm just trying to find the oldest possible references that I can still read myself. I can't read Greek or Aramaic, but I can read Middle English (which is essentially what the KJV is). Therefore, I don't want any newer version.

I can read English translations of Josephus, and if I can find the oldest possible ones, those will be the ones I'd cleave to. Because the fewer translation processes they have gone through, the less tinkering they have been subject to. Do you understand?

...Am saying this since you'll look toward an historian, subject to his own leanings, yet you argue that the NT authors, many who actually lived and walked with Jesus, are somehow less reliable....It would certainly be logical to place more significance on those who were actually with Him.

I believe Josephus and Paul equally, in that I think they recorded what they wanted recorded. That Josephus seems to have had no vested interest in Jesus either way makes him more reliable than Paul where that one particular story is concerned.

But let me say that one doesn't have ‘to fit’ Jewish requirements to the Biography/Prophecies of Jesus.

But do you see there are two different ways they can fit? One is that Jesus' life is changed to fit the Messianic narrative, and the other is that the Messianic narrative is changed to fit Jesus' life.

749 posted on 04/23/2014 12:39:24 PM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: A_perfect_lady
Let me respond to your last statement first....

You stated...” there are two different ways they can fit? One is that Jesus’ life is changed to fit the Messianic narrative, and the other is that the Messianic narrative is changed to fit Jesus’ life.”

You've failed to mention what is obvious and central ...The third being; that Jesus was and is indeed exactly as recorded...the Messiah. No fit to it, He is just as he said, and just as recorded.

.... You've just proved my point, that you've apparently ‘already’ determined Jesus is NOT the Messiah, and you are here to prove that he isn't in order to sustain your position and influence others according to that......Are you?????......Which would account for you saying you would believe Josephus over Paul, though Paul himself spent time with Christ. Jews do have a tendacy to believe Josephus's writings, but only to the point that his writings support their position.

Unfortunately you contradicted yourself by saying...”I'm wondering why he made “certain” that they believed.” When in fact back thread your question was...”why DIDN'T he make them believe.” ...You are wrapping yourself in knots here. Better that you accept the fact they had a choice to believe or not what Jesus said and did...as do all even now. Interesting your saying you not only read and reference Josephus, but you "cleave" to his writings......but you indeed said before you "Only" use the KJ version as a point of reference.

It's important to consider that Jewish people are, for the most part, purposely blinded by God to who Jesus is and the facts supporting Him. This is of course for the Gentiles advantage.....proving again Gods great love for all mankind.

But Jewish people have a difficult time understanding that God said HE would bring a "new covenant", not as the old, which would allow the Gentiles (non-Jews) to be included in His great plan for all of mankind to know and love Him. This does NOT mean He pushed Israel aside.... Gentiles do not replace Israel or the Jews, though unfortunately that has crept into some Christian circles...it's simply not true......... The inclusion of Gentiles in God's family, and the end of the law, these were naturally troublesome matters for people who had been raised under the Mosaic system..... Even some who had believed in Christ struggled with these things. Which Paul then addresses clearly.... "No, God has not utterly rejected the Israelites!"

In Deuteronomy 32:21, God says;

“They [the people of Israel] have made me jealous with what is no god; they have provoked me to anger with their idols. .....So I will make them jealous with those who are no people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.”

God knew well that his people would again go astray. But he has a plan to win them back... He’s going to make them jealous.....'Paul' reiterates this promise from the Torah in Romans 10:19.... and continues by asking in 11:11,.... “Did they [the people of Israel] stumble in order that they might fall? By no means!..... Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous..... Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, ...how much MORE will their full inclusion mean!”

It was God’s plan that his 'new covenant' would extend the possibility of 'relationship with God' to all the peoples of the earth... and that this would also cause the Jewish people to see what they were missing out on!

Even so it's difficult for them to accept...I have friends who are Jewish....they too struggle yet they are open for conversation around the scriptures pertaining to Jesus as well conversations of the old testament scriptures and the old covenant meaning to them.

755 posted on 04/23/2014 1:56:52 PM PDT by caww
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To: A_perfect_lady
One is that Jesus' life is changed to fit the Messianic narrative, and the other is that the Messianic narrative is changed to fit Jesus' life.

Then there is the third one...

769 posted on 04/23/2014 3:59:13 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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