Posted on 04/17/2014 11:35:37 AM PDT by SkyPilot
U2 frontman Bono talks about his faith and answers the question "Who is Jesus?" in the video below. Click play to watch.
Link Here with Video (2 mins 46 secs)
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
No one understood the crucifixion, Lady. No one. To this day, I still do not understand the crucifixion. Oh, I know its theological implications for my life. But I shake my head each Lord’s day and must confess that I do not understand the crucifixion.
But your question is really, Who can [fully] understand the mind of God? If there is one that exists that can, then He is no God. Did the nation of Israel understand pre-Christ? Aside from the precious few who were justified by faith, there were few who did anything that was God-honoring. But even these did not fully comprehend God’s sovereign will. When God saw faith, He justified those people who demonstrated that faith. It was a faith that trusted in a God that would impute His righteousness to an unrighteous sinner. When Christ came upon the scene, were there those who understood? Again, no. There were those who, again, believed and it was accounted to them for righteousness. And today, are there those alive today, who absolutely and fully understand God’s ways? His ways are past understanding (though, again, there are some who can say, “we have the mind of Christ” which enables us who are being saved to comprehend with all the saints something of the depth and width and breadth and height and to know the love of God which is past understanding.)
Your question about what the nation of Israel ought to have expected to know about God’s advancing kingdom, His Messiah, His Deliverer, His Christ, misses the point. The real question is, why weren’t they all looking for the manifestation of the character of God—which would have led them to see “the glory of God revealed in the face of Jesus Christ”? Why aren’t people looking for God today? That is the only real question.
Your intellectual exercise speaks of nothing else but an avoidance of the real questions: Is Christ the Son of God?
I disagree with your assertion that the use of the term Jesus in the KJV was based on a blasphemous curse. I also point out the multitudes who came to know Christ thru the KJV who live their lives knowing who their Lord is and showing the fruit therof. Be very careful of accusing those in whom God has begun a good work , that the good fruit they bear proceeds from a blasphemous root! Be very careful that you are on good ground from which you may proclaim so!
You ignore the Gospel record. Christ did many miracles and yet people still did not believe. Seeing isn’t believing; believing is seeing.
Both sides—Roman leaders and Jewish leaders—were severely threatened by Jesus and by his following. The only reason from their perspective that he was a threat was because his followers believed him—not because anyone thought he was a fake prophet.
If a body were available, they would have produced it. Keeping their power intact meant crushing any threat.
The Jewish leaders paid the Roman guards to spread the story that the disciples had stolen the body.
These leaders are a good example of when a truth is known factually but not followed morally. You know the song that says “do you believe in rock and roll”? He’s not talking about believing mentally in the existence of rock and roll but believing from your heart. The Jewish leaders and Pilate had plenty of evidence to know the truth of Christ. They simply didn’t want, in their heart, to follow him.
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. Corinthians 15:3-9
It’s not a matter of “using ones heart”, it’s a matter of asking God to reveal it to your heart, soul and mind. You ask him to reveal it. The folks here have shown you the proofs but like every horse when led to water...she still needs to drink it...or snort with a whinny and walk away!
He wasn’t a false prophet...that’s for sure...in 70 ad Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed...as Jesus prophesied!
....”Jesus would not claim to be the Son of God when he was on trial for his life. Therefore, he was clearly not a willing sacrifice.”....
First I didn’t parse what I wrote from scripture...it’s scripture....which you would have identified had you read scripture as you say you have. But engaging...yes the scriptures can and do do so if you are seeking the truth.
Pilate’s main question to Jesus was whether he considered himself to be the King of the Jews in an attempt to assess him as a potential political threat....which is your question as well but for other reasons...Is Jesus or is he not the Messiah..the Christ of the Bible...that is what you must decide?
Mark in the NIV translation states:
“Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate. “It is as you say”,... Jesus replied.
Other translations phrase: “Thou sayest it.”(King James Version, ); ....”So you say”. (Good News Bible). ....etc. etc. etc. From American Standard to a host of others...will clarify....Jesus indeed identified who He was.
But I’m not so sure you believe scripture ...do you? or is it all a fairy tale to you?
I have to eat something now...later...
Acts, written by Luke, right? And this happened when? After the resurrection, right? What I want to know is who understood him BEFORE that.
At the time of Jesus birth we know of at least 4 folks that really got it...Mary, Joseph, Simeon and the prophetess Anna...
But here's the problem: This was written by a follower of Luke. Luke was not one of the original apostles. He was a disciple of Paul. Paul was not one of the original disciples. He was the convert Saul who never met Jesus in life and was only converted after Jesus death. All this is written after-the-fact. That's why I keep asking for OT references only.
Job knew Christ as his redeemer who would resurrect him, a millennia or so before Christ came upon the scene:Job 19:25 As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth. 26”Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; 27Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another.
Job was talking about God.
Finally: several passages from Isaiah...cross reference them with the prophecy of Simeon...
No, I'm sorry, as soon as you cross-reference into the NT you are talking about writing that occurred after the fact. I am looking for people who knew, before the fact, that the mission of the Messiah was not the re-instating of Israel.
Isaiah is about the fate of Israel, and how it will influence the nations around it. It's not about the Messiah. If you read chapters 51-54 altogether, and not take verses out of context, it's just about Israel.
You make a snarky issue of Christ not asserting himself as the son of God, when asked but in fact the record we have says he did on multiple occaisions.
Oh no I don't, I think he made it very CLEAR that he was the son of God and that Joseph was not his real father. Only with Pilate did he keep quiet.
Christ being on the mission to die so that men would live, couldn’t afford to get caught up into a legal argument questioning his sanity.
No, if he was on a mission to die, all he had to do is say "Yes, I'm the son of God." Insanity defense is a very modern notion.
Oh no, this is no mere distraction. It makes a huge difference if he is avoiding the question or answering it. A huge difference. Otherwise we would not be having this discussion.
I did however explain why Jesus didn’t say a word Piolet then....Christ had already answered him in their conversation prior. Did you expect Jesus would browbeat him?
When you are on trial for your life, and you are asked a yes or no question, answering yes or no is not browbeating.
You’re rather flitting between occasions...of when Jesus was asked who he was.....I thought you wanted to stay at the time he was in front of Piolet....which actually is wise because things get overlapped and the confusion you are now having.
I'm not flitting at all and I am not confused. I am saying that Jesus would claim to be the son of God in front of Jews, but once he was on trial for his life, and saying that meant the death sentence, he wouldn't say it. That is not confusing at all.
No, you are misunderstanding my question. I don't think they "ought to have" imagined a Messiah the way you perceive him today. My question is: how did they expect to recognize the Messiah.
Until you can understand what my question really is, and not rephrase it to say "you mean this" and "you mean that" we won't be able to continue.
My question is: How did the Jews of that time expect to recognize the Messiah?
Now you either understand those 12 words and the order in which they came, or you don't. Do you?
Actually, I don't ignore it at all. I'm simply not willing to delve into it until I can find someone who can understand where I am starting from.
Had he appeared before them, risen from the dead, undeniably alive... what do you think their reaction would have been?
I'm sorry, I cannot make sense of those 2 sentences.
What I am saying is this: Jesus avoided saying anything that would allow Pilate to pronounce a death sentence. That is why Pilate would not pronounce a death sentence. That Jesus avoided it suggests he was not willing to die. This is simple logic.
....”Yes. Hold on. Let’s pause a minute... which prophecies would have helped them recognize him as “the one written of?”.....
(You can look up the prophecies yourself I already know them and why they point to Jesus....)...
But let’s say this.....Jesus knew the Jews only knew ‘God the Father’...not God the Son..nor God the Holy Spirit....the Trinity was not known to them so it would have been counterproductive for him to announce he was God...
.....Additionally he had much to teach and instruct his diciples concerning his mission, and their one day role in carrying that message...so of course he was selective ‘in Public’ how he would present himself....he wanted the “crowds” to hear him and the message....and the Gospels are primarily what he did and said in public. (Though HE did draw his diciples apart and explain things to them, remember I’ve mentioned noting the three parties always present...the crowds, the diciples and eventually one individual surfaces in all events written of him...)
Further why would he pigionhole himself into what their expectations might be concerning Him?........Wasn’t there enough of false prophets and messiahs tromping around to do that?
Furthermore...Jesus had selected 12 Diciples and you note he was NOT one of them...so if the 12 represented the “re-newed Israel, as some would like us to think... just where did he fit in? HE doesn’t, he wasn’t a part of it. Rather HE was, like God, “forming” the group....just like he did with the 12 tribes. (Are you getting that?)
Additionally look how Jesus interacted with the religious leaders...he told them it was not what enters a man that defiles him, but what comes out of his heart...which pretty much set aside much of Leviticus and it’s details concerning purity. They didn’t like that because they wanted things just as they were...but Jesus told them God had further plans...so what sort of man could or would set aside Jewish law like that and even then say there was more to come?
and then let’s look at Pilate...having a sign made reading “ This is the King of the Jews”...why would he do that? especially insisting it be so after the religious leaders objected , telling Pilate to make it saying Jesus said “He was king of the Jews”....interesting uh?
Additionally why would any Jew want a murder at Passover????....if Jesus was just another counterfeit Messiah it could wait til after Passover......so why all this great willingness to execute him immediately that day and all the chaos about him, unless something else was about this man.....
Additionally all Jesus’s miracles were a sign indicating the coming of the Kingdom of God. Jesus said..”If I by the finger of God, cast out demons”......
So these set Jesus apart from all others. Further even his teachings were radical by the standards of that day....He often used the phrase...”I say to you”....”I tell you”...”Amen” and “Abba” this is was not anything like what others of that time, who were fakes, said..and . Jesus didn’t need witnesses to what he was saying...he made truth claims because he was saying it!
Oh the list and writing s that could go on declaring himself....read the scriptures again..and this time ask Him to show you what He’s saying....
I have looked them up, and posted them several times on this thread. I want to know which ones YOU would post if you were explaining how the disciples would recognize him.
When Philip came to Jesus requesting 'Just show us the Father and that will tell us you are Messiah', Jesus gave Philip a Physics lesson. What Jesus explained to Philip was how the dimensional limits of a man like Philip prevent him from being able to see the greater dimensionality of The Father. BUT, Jesus did tell Philip that all he could know of The Father was what he saw in Jesus, that He, Jesus, was in The Father and The Father in Him. In essence, all that could be seen of The Father Almighty was where The Father intersects the limits well of Philip and the Disciples.
....”When you are on trial for your life, and you are asked a yes or no question, answering yes or no is not browbeating”.....
You are assuming the courts of our time not there’s at that time.... They were more than just lively...so a yes or no answer wasn’t necessary, he had made his claim already and clearly to Pilate face to face...”It is as you say”...and Pilate had asked if he was King of the Jews....and BTW..read the sign sometime Pilate had made for the cross.
I honestly don’t believe you can be convinced Jesus said what he did Perfect Lady...you don’t believe what’s written and clearly recorded...so everything else is just chasing after the wind....For you see...were you to acknowledge that Jesus indeed claim he was the Christ, the Messiah,( and he did) then you would have to determine what your next step would be, wouldn’t you? Where would you go next concerning Him?...and what if it was all indeed true about Him?
But then if you don’t ‘want’ to know you have everything to loose and nothing to gain...that ball is always in our court until we send it back...there is no “holding pattern”.
...”I want to know which ones YOU would post if you were explaining how the disciples would recognize him”....
Why?... Have not others already listed their’s...is that not sufficient?.... “more” is not necessarily always best when one hasn’t yet taken in what they’ve been given....it’s simply “more”.
No, I am not.
They were more than just lively...so a yes or no answer wasn’t necessary,
Then why did Pilate ask the question?
he had made his claim already
Not to Pilate.
and clearly to Pilate face to face...”It is as you say”...
No. He said "That is what YOU say." If he had said "it is as you say," Pilate would have gone back to the Jews and let them know that their charges were confirmed. But he didn't.
I don't want more, I want less. Others are posting everything they can find in the OT that can be interpreted as a parallel to something in the NT. I want them to pare it down to only the ones that can be interpreted WITHOUT the NT. Do you understand?
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