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To: MarDav
Your question about what the nation of Israel ought to have expected to know about God’s advancing kingdom, His Messiah, His Deliverer, His Christ, misses the point.

No, you are misunderstanding my question. I don't think they "ought to have" imagined a Messiah the way you perceive him today. My question is: how did they expect to recognize the Messiah.

Until you can understand what my question really is, and not rephrase it to say "you mean this" and "you mean that" we won't be able to continue.

My question is: How did the Jews of that time expect to recognize the Messiah?

Now you either understand those 12 words and the order in which they came, or you don't. Do you?

490 posted on 04/20/2014 8:19:46 PM PDT by A_perfect_lady
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To: A_perfect_lady
...”How did the Jews of that time expect to recognize the Messiah?”....

Well that would depend on the individual and what they knew or didn't know about him....just as today.

The Jews of that time were under the Roman boots, so many were impoverished and needy...and they blamed Rome for that. Therefore many were “looking” for someone to rescue them as God had done in the past so many times....so it makes sense they would be looking for the "likes" of those who had rescued them before.....but God had other plans.

I suspect some were looking for a prophet type, or Priestly sort of individual....perhaps with the idea of fighting Rome to remove their hardships....so they could appoint him their Kingly Messiah.

It's getting that way in our world even today with all the upheavals etc....people are looking for “the man of the hour” who can fix it all and make things better.

How would you today expect to recognize the Messiah? How would you tell an impostor? Then we could always turn to the religious leaders...who really didn't want to see anyone come on the scene who would take away from them their clout and revenue sources....and just as Jesus did do, I suspect they thought the Messiah would lead the crowds away from them....a few however were willing to consider who this man Jesus was though they kept quiet about recognizing him as their own. I am curious why this question of Identifying the Messiah is so important to you....again what would you look for to identify Him?

509 posted on 04/20/2014 10:40:39 PM PDT by caww
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To: A_perfect_lady

I suggest you go to this web-site:
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/DebunkingChristians/Page26.htm

It is a web-site that suggests the idea of Christ being the Jewish messiah is nonsense! But it gives you some of the scriptures that a skeptic acknowledges are messianic proof texts in the Old Testament.

THEN you need to read Isaiah. Isaiah, it is agreed by both Jew and Gentile, offers much textual insight into the person of the messiah. And, yes, it talks about the Jewish messiah setting up his earthly kingdom, but it also refers to His sufferings in ch. 53. Many Jewish commentators do not believe this portion to be referring to their messiah, but, rather, to the nation of Israel itself. However, if you look at verse 11 you will see evidence that reveals that this cannot possibly be about the nation:

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Did you see it? It is the proof text that indicates the Jewish commentators who believed Isaiah 53 somehow references the nation (and not a unique aspect of their messiah) are wrong. Did you see it? You’ll have to discover it for yourself as now YOU must become the Jew of Jesus’s day!

In the book written by one whose name means “Salvation is from the Lord,” the book which refers again and again to Israel’s failure as a kingdom, its turning of its collective back on God, there is unmistakable evidence that there are specific references to: the Messianic miraculous birth (ch. 7), the Messiah’s land (ch. 8-10), the messiah’s millenial kingdom (ch. 11, 12), the messiah’s rejection by Israel (ch 49-57), the messiah as servant (ch. 49), the messiah as true disciple (ch. 50), the messiah as righteous ruler (ch. 51-52), the messiah as sin-bearing sacrifice (ch. 52-53), the messiah as redeemer and restorer (ch. 54), the messiah as evangelist to the world (ch 55-56), the messiah as judge of the wicked (ch. 56-57).

After Christ’s birth, his parents brought Him to the temple for His dedication (Luke 2). There they met a man, Simeon, who had some interesting things to say to the young couple including this:

Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word
For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

By this, Simeon was acknowledging who the Child would grow up to be and that Mary would suffer anguish as a result of something in the child’s life-experience. Simeon isn’t referring to just any child here, but was no doubt familiar with the suffering messiah of Isaiah 53.

That the Jews of Jesus’s day had the book of Isaiah in its entirety. They had the proof text that messiah would suffer (for sin not His own) but they chose to ignore it This speaks more to the readers’ ability (or, more likely, willingness) to comprehend the text - something you, as an English teacher are, no doubt, all too familiar with.

The real question is why would they make the conscious decision to ignore this aspect of messiah’s credentials? Why would they ignore what Isaiah 53 discusses messiah’s rejection by both man AND God, His death as a sin-offering? You cannot answer these question without looking into your own heart and asking yourself the same questions. Why do you and I and everyone who has ever been born ignore messiah’s “credentials”? Why are we indifferent to (and in some instances, hold in contempt) His sufferings and death? Why do we spend more of our time trying to disprove His claims than trying to prove them?

Your answers to these will give you all the reasons you need to understand what it was the nation of Israel “expected” of their messiah.


516 posted on 04/21/2014 3:56:35 AM PDT by MarDav
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