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Do Libertarians Really "Want a World Without Moral Judgments"?
Reason ^
| 03/22/2013
| Nick Gillespie
Posted on 03/22/2013 8:51:10 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
On March 15 in The New York Times, liberal journalist and author Richard Reeves wrote an op-ed about the new plan in New York City to dramatize the many negative effects of teen pregnancy on girls who give birth before graduating high school and outside of a stable two-parent unit. Billboards and other advertisements around the city, for instance, point out that unwed teen mothers are twice as likely to not finish high school as girls who don't give birth before graduating.
With many smart qualifications, Reeves makes a case for shaming regarding teen pregnancy and other behaviors, and he does it from a liberal POV:
A society purged of shame might sound good in theory. But it would be terrible in practice. We need a sense of shame to live well together. For those with liberal instincts, this is necessarily hard. But it is also necessary.
My issue is less with Reeves' views on public shaming per se and more on an aside he makes about libertarians:
Libertarians might want a world without moral judgments, in which teen pregnancy carries no stigma at all. And paternalists might want the state to enshrine judgments in law perhaps by raising the age of sexual consent or mandating contraception. True liberals, though, believe we can hold one another to moral account without coercion. We must not shy away from shame.
I submit to you that few statements are more wrong than saying "libertarians might want a world without moral judgments." From my vantage point, one of the things to which libertarianism is dedicated is the proliferation of moral judgments by freeing people up to the greatest degree possible to create their own ways of being in the world. To conflate the live and let live ethos at the heart of the classical liberal and libertarian project with an essentially nihilistic dismissal of pluralism and tolerance is a gigantic error. It's like saying that because religious dissenters want to abolish a single state church that they are anti-god.
As the anthropologist Grant McCracken argued in a 1998 Reason story called "The Politics of Plenitude," our world is characterized by a "quickening speciation" of social types and sub-cultures, a liberating reality that is typically mistaken for the end of the world and the end of all morality. McCracken notes that plenitude particularly aggrieves conservatives, because they mistake an urge to escape "a morality" for an attempt to abolish "all morality." He explains:
The right acts as if the many groups thrown off by plenitude harbor an anarchic tendency, that people have become gays, feminists, or Deadheads in order to escape morality. This is not the logic of plenitude. These people have reinvented themselves merely to escape a morality, not all morality. New communities set to work immediately in the creation of new moralities. Chaos does not ensue; convention, even orthodoxy, returns. Liminality is the slingshot that allows new groups to free themselves from the gravitational field of the old moralities they must escape. But liminality is almost never the condition that prevails once this liberation has been accomplished.
courtesy PBSReeves is no conservative. He's a devotee of John Stuart Mill and, I rush to add, has said many positive things about Reason over the years. But his characterization of libertarians as uninterested in moral judgments proceeds from a very conservative - and very profound - misunderstanding of what I think we are all about. This sort of thinking typically emanates from the right - how many of us have had conversations with conservatives who equate ending drug prohibition with a case not simply for occasional use of currently illegal drugs but for an absolute embrace of never-ending intoxication and stupefaction? - but apparently it harbors a home on the left as well. (Go here to read part of a debate I had with Jonah Goldberg a decade ago on the same basic topic).
Shame is certainly not the first thing that most libertarians I know reach for in high-minded policy discussions or less serious conversations. On the narrow question of reducing teen pregnancy - which has in any case reached historic lows over the past decades - it's far from clear the role the sort of public shaming enivisioned by New York authorities will play compared to, say, frank discussions of the harshly reduced opportunities faced by young mothers. Certainly, it may make certain policymakers and politicians feel good, but that is hardly any ground by which to analyze the efficacy of a given policy (to his credit, Reeves calls for a cost-benefit analysis himself).
But it's time to start swatting away random accusations of libertarians as nihilists simply because we don't sign on to every given moralistic agenda that is proposed or enacted in the name of the greater good. No less a buttoned-down character than Friedrich Hayek once wrote that "to live and work successfully with others requires more than faithfulness to one's concrete aims. It requires an intellectual commitment to a type of order in which, even on issues which to one are fundamental, others are allowed to pursue different ends." The libertarian commitment to true pluralism and tolerance is not easy to maintain, but it remains exactly the sort of gesture that allows for differing moralities to flourish and, one hopes, new and better ways of living to emerge.
TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: libertarianism; libertarians; morality
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To: Fightin Whitey
201
posted on
03/23/2013 12:05:48 PM PDT
by
Tax-chick
(Why should I get Valium when wine comes in 5-liter boxes?)
To: little jeremiah
Did I ever suggest that the term "libertarian" was defined by the Libertarian Party Platform? There is nothing libertarian about multi-culturalism or taking the stigma out of certain forms of behavior. For an analogy, the fact that George W. Bush claimed that it was America's mission to promote "Democracy," did ;not make that ridiculous idea--in direct conflict with the Founding Fathers, a "republican" one.
Your mixed bag of "instances," moreover, is very confused. There were laws against some of your litany, not against others. But the laws against crimes based upon private moral considerations, were State Laws. The Federal Government was not intended to act as a keeper of the individual's morals. That, as questions of health, education & welfare, were properly left to the States.
William Flax
202
posted on
03/23/2013 12:56:25 PM PDT
by
Ohioan
To: Ohioan
I agree with you regarding the duties and responsibilities of the states and the fedgov.
I’ve “debated” enough with people who call themselves ‘libertarians’, large L and small, on FR, to know what happens when I try. I’m foolish to ever try it. If they don’t agree with much of the LP platform, they should choose another word to describe their philosophy.
203
posted on
03/23/2013 3:00:36 PM PDT
by
little jeremiah
(Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
To: Tax-chick
Looks like you’re famous for having your own baseball team too!
Ha...what a great collection of pictures on your home page..good to hear from you, take care!
To: SeekAndFind
Social conservatives should be the most fervent libertarians out there. The government has NEVER and will NEVER be a vehicle for social conservative policy. The permanent bipartisan elite is profoundly anti-social-conservative and has always used the power of government to move the line from wherever it is to one notch left. Gay marriage today, no different from abortion in the 1970s, school prayer, birth control and divorce in the 1960s, etc.
Deprive the government of its power to impose values, and you empower individuals to preserve their own values for themselves and their kids.
To: cdcdawg
RE: Im going to have a 17 ounce Coca Cola with my lunch. Is that okay with the Socons?
I don’t see why the answer from SoCons would be “NO”.
SoCons might PERSONALLY disapprove of what you’re doing, but I don’t think they would want government to create a law making what you’re doing illegal.
To: SeekAndFind
I would hope not, but that’s not what I have found from this thread. Personal disapproval without government intervention sounds more like the libertarian position that has been so roundly despised by some here.
207
posted on
03/24/2013 10:48:06 AM PDT
by
cdcdawg
To: only1percent
208
posted on
03/24/2013 2:43:04 PM PDT
by
little jeremiah
(Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
To: Tax-chick
Libertarians are robotic in their thinking. Apply a rule and keep applying it even when it doesn’t apply.
As far as the drug issue, back about a hundred years ago opiates and cocaine were legal because the harmful effects were not know but when medicine discovered the negative aspects of drugs there were laws passed against drug use.
To: cradle of freedom
210
posted on
03/24/2013 5:57:04 PM PDT
by
Tax-chick
(Stand in the corner and scream with me!)
To: Hemingway's Ghost
Look what “grown adults” do every day. Drunk driving, anyone? Libertarians don’t seem to get the problem of sin in human nature. They think they can reason it all away. Look at a drunken derelict, is that choice reasonable? People do things to themselves and others that are totally unreasonable and even insane. Libertarians seem to want everything in neat tight categories.
To: JustSayNoToNannies
From what I heard recently it sounds like a set up to bring the police into the appartment where two homosexuals were engaged in sodomy.
To: IronJack
The slimy hands of Grover Norquist is behind this. He was the one who invited libertarians, gays and muslims to CPAC as an strong arm tactic to drive the conservatives out of the party.
To: Bikkuri
if they just kept it in their bedroom, this would not be an issue, but its in schools being shoved down the throats of kids, its all over TV and they want to punish those who have differing opinions.... hardly in their bedrooms I agree that forced "tolerance" "education" and forced "nondiscrimination" are wrong and should be opposed. Do you agree that sodomy behind bedroom doors should remain none of the government's business?
if the government doesnt know about it, how would it be their business?
The sodomy laws Responsibility2nd calls for would make it government's business. Favor or oppose?
Have you stopped beating your wife/hubby?
Shame you haven't stopped dodging and evading.
214
posted on
03/25/2013 7:10:34 AM PDT
by
JustSayNoToNannies
("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
To: cradle of freedom
The sodomy laws Responsibility2nd calls for would make it government's business. Favor or oppose? Keep it in the closet and there is no problem
Wrong. The situation that ultimately brought sodomy laws before the USSC was people caught in the act of sodomy when the police executed a warrant on an unrelated matter. And for that matter, nothing prevents authorities from seeking a search warrant on the basis of probable cause to suspect violation of sodomy laws.
From what I heard recently it sounds like a set up to bring the police into the appartment where two homosexuals were engaged in sodomy.
Could be. The facts remain that people can be caught in the act of sodomy when the police execute a warrant on an unrelated matter, or enter based on exigent circumstances - and that nothing prevents authorities from seeking a search warrant on the basis of probable cause to suspect violation of sodomy laws ... so it's clearly false to claim "Keep it in the closet and there is no problem."
215
posted on
03/25/2013 7:48:21 AM PDT
by
JustSayNoToNannies
("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
To: SeekAndFind
As a libertarian I can tell you that just because I dont want the government, with the full force of law cracking down on citizens for certain behaviors - DOES NOT MEAN I FAVOR THOSE BEHAVIORS.
There is a role for individual responsibility as well as family, church, and community intervention.
With a smaller government (less expensive and intrusive), individuals, family and churches will have the opportunity to step up. These entities can handle these problems much more appropriately.
216
posted on
03/25/2013 7:51:28 AM PDT
by
Triple
(Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
To: cradle of freedom; Tax-chick
As far as the drug issue, back about a hundred years ago opiates and cocaine were legal because the harmful effects were not know but when medicine discovered the negative aspects of drugs there were laws passed against drug use. That's a pure fabrication. The only anti-drug laws passed in the 1880s were against smokable opium, and were targeted at the recently immigrated Chinese laborers. Even when the Harrison Narcotic Act was passed in 1914, "The supporters of the Harrison bill said little in the Congressional debates (which lasted several days) about the evils of narcotics addiction in the United States. They talked more about the need to implement The Hague Convention of 1912," which was "aimed primarily at solving the opium problems of the Far East, especially China." "Even Senator Mann of Mann Act fame, spokesman for the bill in the Senate, talked about international obligations rather than domestic morality. On its face, moreover, the Harrison bill did not appear to be a prohibition law at all." (http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/cu/cumenu.htm)
217
posted on
03/25/2013 8:20:55 AM PDT
by
JustSayNoToNannies
("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
To: cdcdawg
Come to think of it, there are times when I dont give to the poor. Maybe the government should also do that for me. Christian morality requires it, so the government should enforce it. Funny how selective "moral conservatives" are about which moral behaviors should be governmentally enforced, isn't it?
218
posted on
03/25/2013 8:47:37 AM PDT
by
JustSayNoToNannies
("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
To: GeronL
“The libertarians sure push for their drugs “
That’s the upper-case L libertarians. Not the same thing as a real libertarian.
219
posted on
03/25/2013 9:03:44 AM PDT
by
TheThirdRuffian
(RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
To: cdcdawg
“There is the philosophy of libertarianism, and there is the Libertarian Party. Obviously, there is a huge amount of overlap, but they are not exactly the same.”
Concur.
220
posted on
03/25/2013 9:04:13 AM PDT
by
TheThirdRuffian
(RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
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