Posted on 05/01/2012 7:33:08 PM PDT by Mozilla
Many naive Americans believe that Mormonism is merely another branch of protestant Christianity. Well that’s not what the founders and leaders of Mormonism believed.
According to its founder, Joseph Smith, and Brigham Young, Smith’s successor, Mormons are the only true people of God on the earth. All non-Mormons and their religions are “wrong, an abomination, blind, damned, of the devil, whores, not Christians, groveling in darkness, heathens, ignorant, devoid of fact, pagan and hatched in Hell.”
When Romney made a speech about his religion in 2008 he refused to distance himself from his faith and fully affirmed his Mormonism. Responding to critics, Romney said,
"They would prefer it if I would simply distance myself from my religion, say that it is more a tradition than my personal conviction, or disavow one or another of its precepts. That I will not do. I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it. My faith is the faith of my fathers - I will be true to them and to my beliefs."
Romney, the father of homosexual marriage in America and abortion funding Romney Care in Massachusetts, flip-flops on virtually every issue, but he is adamant about his anti-Christian Mormonism. Romney needs the vote of Christians to win election, but he refuses to “disavow one or another of its precepts.”
Nor can anyone think Romney is merely a casual or cultural Mormon who just happened to be born Mormon. He is an active Bishop in the Mormon church hierarchy. He cannot pretend to be ignorant of the teaching of Joseph Smith and the other “prophets” of Mormonism.
Below is a list of quotes from Mormon leaders and official publications starting with Joseph Smith down to our day. The message is consistent and clear.
(Excerpt) Read more at defendchristians.org ...
You said:
Why are you and seemingly many others on this thread so ABUSIVE of folks who are outside your sect? (Seemingly including myself.) It simply makes me cringe. At the very least, it's bad advertising of the Christian message.
Now why do I find this comment problematic?
#2 This aspect bothered me big time. I at times get a little tired of posters who accuse and slander and judge others as being "abusive" -- which is what you did in post #512 vs. not only Elsie -- but "many" unnamed others.
So that prompted me to review...
...not only the specific post of Elsie's you were responding to,
...but EVERYTHING Elz has said on this thread going back to post #107.
There was absolutely NOTHING in that post of Elz you were responding to (#492) that was remotely "abusive."
I check Elz' 400 series of posts...Elz cites Scripture in posts #471 & #466 & Elz' comments are minor there.
Elz labels Mormons "lame" in post #135...but given the context of that statement 'tis not unfitting. And Elz labels Mormons "traditional heretics" in post #114, also not unfitting.
So. Clue us in. HOW is Elz -- and "many" others on this thread -- being abusive of others? (Please be specific)
The "many others" accusation is tantamount to some teacher -- speaking negatively of an entire classroom -- when the teacher may be upset over one or two students...
...Now what if that teacher refused to say what the students did, leaving a pall of negativity upon ALL in the classroom?
...I don't think that would be fair...
...If teachers or parents need to hold accountable specific kids over specific acts, please do that as well in the context of this thread...
...Please don't just engage in generic slander as a tactic vs. general people you disagree with re: political strategy & re: witnessing tactics]
Is that too much to ask?
You said:
Why are you and seemingly many others on this thread so ABUSIVE of folks who are outside your sect? (Seemingly including myself.) It simply makes me cringe. At the very least, it's bad advertising of the Christian message.
Now why do I find this comment problematic?
#3 In post #447, Reaganaut asked you a simple Q -- if you believed Mormons are Christians.
You responded as if classifying a group of religionists as "non-Christian" somehow equates to "commit[ing] him to eternal perdition." [In context you said: "My job is to love my neighbor as myself. It is not to judge him, and therefore to commit him to eternal perdition — for doctrinal failures that perhaps exist only in my own mind."]
Your response here proves problematic on a couple of angles:
(a) Do you REALLY think that ANY given missionary to a given people goes there, thinking ALL of them are "committed to eternal perdition?" Really? Aren't they there for the exact opposite reason? (To ensure that doesn't happen with as many of that group as possible?)
I find it incredibly strange that Christians like you are "A-OK" with Lds' 55,000 missionaries out and about (+ over 20,000 mostly retired "service missionaries") treating Christians as "apostates" to proselytize into Mormon conversion; but if any of us dare does the same thing with Mormons -- treat them as lost heretics to be won or at least treat them as any other non-Christian sect, new religion, or even like a world religion, you suddenly assign us to the Hell Consignment Industry...tho probably --to a poster -- ALL of us would admit we don't know the future of any person's life...even if we can say, "If this person continues down the road," hell is a likely place that will snatch more of them than heaven does.
Romney may be saved in the future. I & others here don't place him in the lineup of hell. Who does here? Jesus died for him, too, showing Mitt Romney's great worth.
IOW, your argument in post #449 (that people here are committing others to perdition) -- is an outright strawman.
(b) Your basis of making some distinction of why YOU carry the open authority to morally judge others on this thread -- and other posters apparently have some restriction you've assigned to them -- becomes then a strawman & disparate comparison.
Now in post #458, you added a similar dimension -- "judging another man's soul." If you meant that like the above, that, too is a straw man. Of course, in some way, every missionary calculates the "condition" of men's souls in the group they are trying to reach...If you meant it the same way that these missionaries do this, then by all means, don't stop at condemning thread-posters here, start lambasting most of the present & past missionaries of the world!
These missionaries -- like the Flying Inmans -- have discerned (a VERY good BIBLICAL word, mind you) that indeed Mormons are spiritually needy of the TRUE Gospel of Jesus Christ. There's nothing wrong with that conclusion.
Are you embarrassed by that realization?
So...if there's nothing wrong there...and if your #449 comment was a strawman, then what REALLY are you accusing posters on this thread of "judging"??? Are they not Biblically discerning some key realities here?
And finally -- if you say -- in post #458 that you judge "facts" -- how have you proved that Elsie's posts on this thread are 'abusive'-as-'fact' ... vs. your apparent subjective judgmentalism here?
And I have applied a religious test in this election. Namely, the longer this administration continues, the more pro-Islam, anti-Christianity and anti-Israel this nation becomes. Public school children are being brain-washed to these attitudes.
If stopping the anti-Christianity, anti-Israel, pro-Islam tsunami is not God's will for this nation, perhaps we are but a few minutes to midnight on God's clock, in which case I say...
Maranatha, Jesus!
Thank you so very much for your encouragements, dearest sister in Christ!
Namely, the longer this administration continues, the more pro-Islam, anti-Christianity and anti-Israel this nation becomes. Public school children are being brain-washed to these attitudes.
- - - - -
Dear sister in Christ,
None of these things will change with Romney. Mormons are also very much Pro-Islam, anti-Christianity and anti-Israel (they believe in replacement theology that they are the ‘true’ Israel). I can give quotes from Mormon sources if you wish.
I cannot vote for a man who insults my Savior every day, who thinks God was once a sinner, who supports abortion and socialism and is all of the things that this administration is.
I think that's because I can spot someone who complains about a certain method or puts up a certain argument, and then THEY turn around and DO the very thing they complain about, in the same reply!
It's really hard to admit, especially to one's self, that your own petard has been hoisted.
It requires that a person admit they've been wrong - a quite uncommon human trait.
That would be salvation granted by virtue of a “work”, that is, mastering the text.
Indeed!
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
1 John 3:21-24
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
HE has sent - not some bozo who appears in concert with another dude, telling lies in the forest.
Wow!
You must have a very strong constitution!
AMEN!
That being said; I hope the PRE-trib folks are right!
Or Pre-Wrath, either way...
c: 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me... (John 5:39)
Also....
Galatians 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
bb, I hate to say it, but it sounds like you're repeating anti-Protestant talking points. Nobody claims that doctrine saves or that the Bible saves. Anyone who preaches the gospel will clearly and freely confess Christ as their savior, He alone being the one who saves by His mercy and grace. Forgiveness is a gift, freely given. If it weren't, it wouldn't be a gift, rather something earned.
Nevertheless, Scripture is the special revelation whereby we can know God instead of knowing about Him as the general revelation gives us knowledge.
Scripture is the absolute standard of truth by which we measure everything to determine if it's from God or not. If it doesn't line up with Scripture, it's not from God. Jesus being the child of God conceived through sex between God the Father and Mary, denies the virgin birth and incarnation as clearly taught in Scripture.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.
However, nobody *worships* the Bible. The charge of *bibliolatry* is unfounded.
The Bible IS complete, in that it contains all we need to come into a saving relationship with God. There is no need for any more special revelation outside of Scripture.
Anyone who so claims what God said isn't enough or complete, falls into the trap of *Did God REALLY say....? that Satan used to deceive Eve.
Mastery of the written word is something we are admonished to attain.
2 Timothy 2:15 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
2 Timothy 4:1-4 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
Just a question. Are you aware of how Pro-Islam and Anti-Christian Mormonism truly is? Would you like to know more? I can provide some good source material from LDS leaders. Please do not ignore the realities of who Romney truly is and the control the Mormon church exercises over him. Not God, not Christ, the Corporation of the Mormon Church.
Others may disagree, however I have been Mormon, I know exactly what their agenda is and their propensity for lying to get what they want and make Mormonism look good.
I do agree we must vote according to our conscience and I cannot vote for someone who believes and acts contrary to the Gospel of Christ - Mitt Romney. Nor can I vote for anyone or anything that will be used to further the goals of the Mormon cult - a group that spits on my Savior - again Mitt Romney. Obama isn’t any better. So I am voting against both.
Matthew 10:28 - Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Romney = obamney
Three points related to voting our conscience:
First, a Christian should not demand every other Christian be just like him.
Christ chose twelve very different people to be His apostles. John was not like Peter who was not like James who was not like Thomas who was not like Paul who was not like Judas. Not every Christian is a firebrand like Paul or a gentleman like John or a hardhead like Thomas and so on. They did not agree on every thing (Acts.) Not every Christian has the same spiritual gifts and calling. (I Cor 12)
That one Christian is compelled in the spirit to vote against both Obama and Romney does not mean that every other Christian will therefore be compelled to do the same thing. God did not make us with a cookie cutter.
Second, we are mere mortals and therefore incapable of mentally rationalizing God's will. Rather, we should seek His will through prayer.
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. - Matthew 7:7-8
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. - Philippians 4:6-7
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: - Exodus 10:1
Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all people, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you. I thought it good to shew the signs and wonders that the high God hath wrought toward me. - Daniel 4:1-2
God's Name is I AM.
And where have I done any of those things. Regarding the evil actor, it is possible that it is God’s will, that does not mean we should vote for it. Even if we vote against it, if it is God’s PERMISSIVE will (like Israel having a King), then doesn’t mean it is His EXPRESSIVE will, nor does it mean we, as Christians should support it.
I’m just giving you food for thought. As for me, I CANNOT support Romney - for very many reasons. There is no such thing as the lesser of two evils and it saddens me to see so many people cave to evil.
19 Then Daniel (also called Belteshazzar) was greatly perplexed for a time, and his thoughts terrified him. So the king said, “Belteshazzar, do not let the dream or its meaning alarm you.”
Belteshazzar answered, “My lord, if only the dream applied to your enemies and its meaning to your adversaries! 20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth, 21 with beautiful leaves and abundant fruit, providing food for all, giving shelter to the wild animals, and having nesting places in its branches for the birds — 22 Your Majesty, you are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.
23 “Your Majesty saw a holy one, a messenger, coming down from heaven and saying, ‘Cut down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump, bound with iron and bronze, in the grass of the field, while its roots remain in the ground. Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven; let him live with the wild animals, until seven times pass by for him.’
24 “This is the interpretation, Your Majesty, and this is the decree the Most High has issued against my lord the king: 25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like the ox and be drenched with the dew of heaven. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes. 26 The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules. 27 Therefore, Your Majesty, be pleased to accept my advice: Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. It may be that then your prosperity will continue. ”
28 All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 Twelve months later, as the king was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, 30 he said, “Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?”
31 Even as the words were on his lips, a voice came from heaven, “This is what is decreed for you, King Nebuchadnezzar: Your royal authority has been taken from you. 32 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like the ox. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes.”
33 Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like the ox. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.
34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.
His dominion is an eternal dominion;
his kingdom endures from generation to generation.
35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: “What have you done?”
36 At the same time that my sanity was restored, my honor and splendor were returned to me for the glory of my kingdom. My advisers and nobles sought me out, and I was restored to my throne and became even greater than before. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble.
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